Flawed attempt: Mark McCafferty
Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty was left upset over a European Rugby Cup meeting that took place without their presence.
Union talks between France, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Italy were held on Wednesday but ended fruitless after several ideas were tabled.
And that has left McCafferty unhappy as he hit back by saying that the alliance between England and France is ultimately stronger than ever.
"It was a flawed attempt to divide and rule and it failed," McCafferty told the Guardian.
"In the short term, the meeting was not helpful in finding a solution that meets most of the needs of all those involved in the European tournaments.
"It may be that a period of reflection is needed and that, with the autumn internationals coming up, it may be a good idea to postpone the next meeting of the shareholders, which is planned for next Tuesday in Dublin. It is something I will be discussing with our clubs on Friday and I know from the calls I have received that they are very angry at what happened this week."
Top 14 and Aviva Premiership outfits want to ensure that RaboDirect PRO12 teams qualify for a 20-team elite tournament and for the money to be divided equally between the leagues. And with the French rejecting two counter proposals tabled by the PRO12, it seems Anglo-French ties remain strong. The Rugby Football Union were at the meeting, represented by chief executive Ian Ritchie and professional rugby director Rob Andrew.
"If the ERC thought our plan was going to change then they understand now that it is not. The picture is clearer. The way the meeting was done was not helpful but maybe there has been some reverse benefit," one club source told the Press Association.
Comments
Rosbif says...
Funny, you know. If the French contingent were headed by a guy like this, doing this kind of stuff, the press would have a field day. Eric Cantona. The seagulls follow the trawler. Marc Lievremont. My players are spoilt brats. And yet, despite Will Carling calling it right all those years ago with the "old farts" comment, it seems, like farts themselves, they have lingered and lingered in the corridors of power.....
Posted 20:07 01st November 2012
Norm says...
Thanks for the link Sheridan. Thornley puts an impassioned argument but that doesnt make it any the less objective or accurate.
Oh and did I mention Mark McCaffrey is a disgrace to the game. He could do English Rugby a favour he could go to Southampton and let Clive Woodward have his job, he after all ( if not him whoever was the head of PRL at the time) was the straw that metaphorically broke Woodwards back.
Posted 22:21 30th October 2012
Norm says...
This doughnut tried to torpedo the ERC and sign everyone up to a deal which would offer a smaller number more money, sounds like the RFU/ Sky move some years ago. He put his flag in the ground and is miffed to find that everyone didnt come running to join his new gang!
Whats even more pathetic is his trying to leverage that fact that a breakthrough wasnt found and ergo the French will see he was right all along and leave those smelly celts to play amongst themselves. Pathetic.
A deal will be done and it will ultimately damage developing and smaller playing nations notably Scotland and Italy, thankfully we know the French will come back and a deal will be found with or without this joker and the PRL. He doesnt even involve in brinksmanship negotiation because he doesnt have the balls to engage in a negotiation in which he could display brinksmanship, no this is the ultimate back door operator! What I would love to know is what is this idiot going to do when his countinued countermanouveuring against his own unio n mean the PRL are still for the most part off the pace of the top European clubs?
As some of you have said, the English were there in the misshape of Rob Andrew as were the other Unions of the ERC. The fact that he wasnt there is down to the fact that he is diametrically opposed to the development of rugby by his own union let alone any other. He should try and work with rather than against the RFU and maybe some of the english game's shortcomings may just be resolved, unless that is of course he, Barwell et al are actually only concerned with money and not the game of rugby? Eh? Surely not!
Posted 19:44 30th October 2012
Sheridan says...
Worth reading Gerry Thornley's article on it today in the Irish Times, some strong views..... http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1030/1224325895198.html
Posted 08:35 30th October 2012
porridge_time says...
Scotland are improving, but like you say so are the other countries. However, from what I saw in the summer the rest of ths Six Nations side are not that far in front. Scotland's main problem is the lack of depth. Being marginalised by a bigger and richer force next door will only halt any progress they are making... the same could be said for Italy and Wales.
This whole debacle is nothing to do with ERC, but everything do to with English PRL - and to a lesser extent France - trying to centralize the worlds top players to their respective Leagues. This will not be good for the global game.
Posted 07:02 30th October 2012
melkdave says...
@Porridge_Time
I agree with you the Scotland national side looks like its improving,and believe me no one takes them lightly ,or if they do they usually lose to Scotland..But that said hasnt that always been the case ,i can still remember the grand slam showdown of 1990 ,where England where odds on by a huge margin ,and lost.The sad fact is every team has improved and are improving year on year,and Scotland still seem to be a bit behind the major powerhouses of the game .As to clubs well Edinburgh abandonded their league program last season for HC glory ,and even though Glasgow made the league playoffs,it was by the skin of their teeth .Dont you think that the bigger budgets of the main irish sides could have something to do with their success after all its twice any scottish,welsh or italian clubs,and even bigger than the english clubs now,and while its brought glory to their clubs ,it certainally hasnt to the irish national team . Despite the golden genaration.Where Wales are the most succesfull in recent times followed by England and France.,So i wouldnt say Ireland have made the best transition to the profesionnal era in that regard ,would you??I would also like to see what your solution to the HC would be ,as one thing is for sure the present format for qualification ect is not going to last beyond 2014, and the english and french clubswill leave without a solution.what do you think of @J_HDKs thoughts ect.
Posted 01:31 29th October 2012
porridge_time says...
Since the inception of the Celtic league i have seen no improvement in Scotland or Scottish rugby what so ever.
That is utter rubbish. Edinbugh - although struggling this season - made it through to the ERC semi final and Glasgow currently thrid in the Pro12 were in the play offs last season. Scotland may have had a poor six nations, but they did succeed in beating Australia in Australia. The national side and the two professional teams are becoming more competative year on year.
Irish rugby are the one European nation that managed the transition into pro rugby exceptionally well and all credit to them. The English clubs are only peeved about this and are trying to redress the ballance, but not through improving their own systems and player management. They just want to reduced the effectiveness of the compition by bully boy tactics.
Posted 20:51 28th October 2012
porridge_time says...
The Pro12 League placings should have absolutely no baring on the ERC. Each of the countries involved are fairly represented the fact that Scots and Italians only have two pro teams is neither here nor there.
The crux of the matter is that English teams have not done well in recent years so they want the dice loaded in their favour. It's obvious that PRL are trying to achieve that of their soccer counterparts. The desire to centralize Rugby Union to England will not be good for the development of the game.
Posted 20:32 28th October 2012
melkdave says...
@J_HDK
I posted a simlar proposal to yours on annother euro thread ages ago,.The only differance was no automatc place for the champions ,but an extra place for a Pro12 team,based on merit ,ie the highest placed non qualified team in the league and it not being dependant on nationality ie it can be welsh ,irish ,italian ,scotish ,doesnt matter.Of course it was ignorned by the majority of celtic posters ,who only wanted to hurl insults and non facts .At least you have shown you have thought about the situation ,and come up with an idea ,which is more than most have .Just one correction on your post,the elite and A team irish players are paid direct by the IRFU,as they are centrally contracted to them ,and not by the clubs
@Mr_Right
No i dont think of myself as an authority on everything rugby,but it does irk me when i read blatent fasehoods and half-truths stated as facts ect so do the reaseach..Yes 36 games a season can/will take alot out of players over the course of their carreers ,it also does in football ,a far less physical sport But player welfare has improved ,and continues to improve,their conditioning is alot better today ,than even 3 yrs ago,and players can now look forward to 12-15 year carreers at the top leval ,as shown by S.Shaw ,N.Sharpe ect On budgets £6million is stil a bigger budget than £5 million 20% more to be precise,so imo is still a healthy advantage ,espically as ive pointed out above .The clubs dont pay their elite irish players wages ect at all..Also compard to welsh ,scottish ,italian club budgets its a massive advantage ,and hardly a leval playing field as far as the Pro12 is concerned ,At least in the AP every club has the same budget.
Posted 14:46 27th October 2012
kybone says...
I just hope that something gets sorted out one way or the other and we still have a european competition where all six nations have the opportunity to qualify. I enjoy having these debates with people, but when some come on here just to post things like 'this clown and the RFU are toy throwing, mainly because all of their clubs are crap.'- It just adds nothing. Its the kind of comment that an 8 year old would make.
In my opinion all three major leagues should just be treated equally, which at the moment they're not. The Pro 12 should come more in to line with the other two leagues and make teams qualify. The only argument against this is that you risk some nations having no participation in the HC. For me thats not neccessarily a bad thing. Since the inception of the Celtic league i have seen no improvement in Scotland or Scottish rugby what so ever. In fact you could argue that they're worse! Maybe having to qualify for the HC might force them to improve their standards. The current system in the Pro12 breeds complacency. Listen, im not in favour of change for English rugby's benefit, im in favour of change because i want to see an improvement all round.
Posted 14:02 27th October 2012
porridge_time says...
rugby_rockstar says... excellent points well made. If the PRL are able to get what they are looking for then it can only be bad for the sport.
In New Zealand the amount of young talent being taken out of their domestic game is alarming. Australia pushed to get another Super Rugby team, yet did not have the players to do so. What we have seen is the pilage of New Zealand.
The centralization of rugby to Europe is not a good idea.
Posted 01:38 27th October 2012
Mr_Right says...
@melkdave
You have to be the authority on every article on this site don't you?
For starters your maths is wrong as is the majority of what you say in your post. If in fact all of your stats are true which is impossible to prove as you are simply picking these up from other articles and commentary on the topic which is not always accurate, 36 games in a season is still quite a lot of games for a rugby player to play in a year. The damage they do to themselves over a ten year career can have a serious affect on their long term health
So you say English clubs only have a budget of 5 million POUNDS a year and you say Irish clubs have a 'big' advantage with 7.5 million EURO a year, well taking the current exchange rate of .80 cent to the pound this equates to roughly 6m pounds a year, hardly a huge advantage over the 5m you say the English clubs have.
On the topic of foreign players in squads, where are you getting this information? How do you field a team thats 75% english and 25% foreign? That means you have 3.75 foreign players on the pitch and 11.25 english! A very strange limit to have when you cant physically have 25% of your team as foreign. Not to pick on Sarries but have they not put out multiple foreigners in their starting 15 at one time? Nieto, Brits, Botha, Brown, De Kock, Wyles, Tagikibua, Burger?
Irish teams are limited to 4 foreign players plus one project player (I.e. a foreign player that may become eligible to play for Ireland after 3 years) Per SQUAD, they can play them all at the same time but that's 5 players out of a squad of 35-40. I won't even begin to talk about the even stricter rules that are coming in for Irish teams in the next year or so.
Rugby in general benefits from having all 6 nations involved in a European Cup, and hopefully all sides will get there act together and come to an agreement.
Posted 00:03 27th October 2012
J_HDK says...
@melkdave
2 IRFU has ¿20-25m to fund all four provinces. This is not just player salaries but everything.
3 Some overseas players but majority must be Irish qualified. eg Leinster. Four non Irish qualified in squad of fourty.
The way to do this fairly.
(the idea of reducing it to 20 teams IMO is a logisitical joke)
4 groups of 4 in H Cup
4 England
4 France
2 Ireland
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
HEC Champs
Amlin Champs
Top eight from this into quarter finals with home advantage to pool winners.
Then home and away legs from semi finals.
3rd and 4th in pools feed directly into 2nd round of Amlin Cup
8 groups of 4 in Amlin Cup
22 Remaining teams feed pools along with
1 Spain
2 Russian
1 Romanian
1 Georgian
1 Portugal
4 Top 10 Italy
Each pool winner gets home 2nd round match against HC Pool losers.
Then random draw for quarters.
The decreasing of allocated places to each Celtic nations will automatically make Pro12 more competitive on a week to week basis, which should keep the English and the French happy, while ensuring it remains truly European and inclusive.
Amlin Challenge, Cream will rise to the top for the second round while ensuring greater exposure of top rugby in lower tier nations.
Posted 23:04 26th October 2012
jimbosim says...
Lets face it the English were not invited to the table- If i were an english rugby fan i would be worried, Trust me there is def no getting into bed with the French. Not a chance LOL
Posted 22:36 26th October 2012
Pembs says...
You don't invite monkeys to meetings for organ grinders Mark McCafferty
Posted 18:51 26th October 2012
mcdb06 says...
@ DaveJ Well said
Posted 18:21 26th October 2012
melkdave says...
CORRECTION-I of course ment 33-36 games a season played by players depending if they make finals ect.
Posted 16:58 26th October 2012
melkdave says...
Well looks like the celtic unions tried to do a deal without any english representation there at all NO RFU or ERC,at the meeting ,and the french shot them down.
As to the BT deal may i remind the rabid celtic posters here.That there was no tv deal for after 2014,there was also no agreement for paticipation by any clubs in the HC either.So english clubs just like french or celtic ,where within their rights to do any deal they wanted.
@Rugby_Rockstar
Yes lets look at your consequences shall we
1)Player burnout due to increased workload-Havent i proved you and others totally wrong on this many times before??But for the record ill state it again .Even now players are limited by IRB regulations to the amount of games they can lay a season.All players wheather Pro12 ,T14 or AP play about 43-36 games a season including internationals .So your wrong on that for starters.
2)To avoid burnout bigger squads wil be needed,and only french clubs could afford this.Wrong again im afaird Leinster,Munster and Ulster already have bigger budgets than AP clubs with each reciving 7.5 million euros from the IRFU .While the AP clubs are limited to £5 million ,and the welsh and scottish to £3million appox .So the irish clubs have a big advantage there or is nmy maths wrong??
3)The likely sourcee is the SANZARnations for bigger squads-Wrong again Every nation will have from 2013 quotas and limits on overseas players in their 1st team squads ,even the french clubs,will have a certain pecentge having to be home grown players ,atm the AP i think its 75% have to be english or english qualified ,while atm that just doesnt apply to the Pro12 clubs ,where Leinster/Ulster and Munster have 33% or more overseas players in their 1st tam squads .
Also you fail to list the consequences of not making the Pro12 revalent or for the clubs viable
Posted 16:56 26th October 2012
Dezz says...
Here is the solution.
Disband the Pro12. Have the 4 Welsh regions play each other numerous times (insert number here) same for the 4 Irish provinces. Scotland to have a 2 team league of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Same for Italy with Treviso and Zebre. Have the top three from the Welsh and Irish leagues to quailfy and the top 2 from the Scottish and Italian league.
With the ERC winning country having an extra team....which as we stand is Ireland.
Problem solved with who qualifys.
It could be made even better by Scotland bringing back Border Reivers and Caledonian Reds and having the top 3 qualify and the same idea with Italy.........problem is that England and France would have to give up a place for the extra Jock and Wop sides.
OR, Wales could go back to clubs with a league consisting of 10 to 14 clubs and have half the league qualify. Ireland could do the same......and Scotland......and Italy.
So thats 6 countries with a minimum of 5 teams each with the winners of the Euro and Amlin cup. 32 teams, 8 groups of 4, winners to play runners up, 3rd place team go into Amlin.
How easy was that to solve.
Posted 16:17 26th October 2012
physiodan says...
@DaveJ Claremont???? Please get it right!
SH rugby will not suffer and if the PRL and T14 clubs can manage with the rotation due to having to qualify for the HC through having to come better than 6th then why is this so difficult for the Rabbo? English clubs also have to comply with rest days for the EPS players.
HC needs 6 qualifiers from each competition, the nationality that win the HC increase their numbers by 1 to include the winner or the next best in that league. Following this the remainder of the teams should be judged by there seasons performance and selected on merit. Complicated I know but teams playing in the premier European competition should be there because they deserve it.
Posted 15:51 26th October 2012