DannyBoy says...

If England and France did pull out, the following year there would be a European Competition with the Celtic Nations, Italy and France.

Bye Bye England!

Posted 21:48 09th July 2012

quin_dub says...

The fundamental question here is - What is the Heineken Cup for?

When it was originally started the idea was not to create a "Champions League" for Rugby , but to create a tournament that would help develop Rugby in all of the European nations - Hence each country got an allocation of places , to be distributed as they saw fit .

England & France chose League positions as they had large leagues up & running already..

Ireland & Scotland did not have a league in place at the time & chose to use their provincial teams as their qualifiers .Wales & Italy had leagues & again chose to use league positions.

When the Celtic league was formed , the countries respective Unions retained their allocation of Heineken Cup places..

It is disingenuous to say that the Pro 12 has 10 H-Cup places , it does not , it has NONE , each of the constituent unions own the places & could chose to allocate them in any way they see fit.

So - Do we want a Champions league or do we want to continue with the underlying purpose of the Heineken cup as it exists today??

In terms of the Anglo/French request - The reduction in teams has more to do with freeing up week-ends for other fixtures than anything else (certainly in the case of France - They are looking to add 2 teams to the Top 14 (Top 16 then?)) & of course the distribution of money...

My preference would be for the number of teams to remain the same & for the Celtic/Pro12 teams to work qualification such that each country has at least 1 team in the Heineken Cup & the remaining places being allocated on league position. If that was in place for next year , that would mean that Connacht & the Dragons would qualify ahead of Aironi & Edinburgh - Although with the winning country getting an extra spot , for next year , in reality only Aironi would miss out as Edinburgh would move up based on Connachts automatic qualification

Posted 21:03 09th July 2012

TVaddict says...

Meh, I wouldn't be heartbroken if we moved to an English and French club competition. To be fair we wouldn't lose much. We could offer Leinster and Ulster a place too if they wanted, then we'd have a competition equally as strong. I mean, the Pro 12 is a bit pointless as half the teams don't both to compete. The amount of game time for an average player in the premiership must be so much higher than for those in Pro 12.

Posted 18:45 09th July 2012

scrumdog says...

English and French clubs just don't get the results from the money poured into their clubs for foreign players and so its a poor return on investment and they want to change the game to suit their poor performances both on the rugby field and in the owners bank accounts. French and English arrogance is about to raise its ugly head again.....

Posted 16:45 09th July 2012

papachinzo says...

Its obvious the English and French don't like the way the Celtic nations don't have to qualify for the H-Cup, this is what this is all about: 4 less teams = 4 less Celtic teams, which makes sense for the competition. Structural wise we would have 5 groups of death every season, making it tougher to qualify for the finals.

The C-Cup would also have more quality teams in it. The teams would be made up of 6 clubs from each League plus the winner of the AC and an extra place granted to the Winner of the Heineken for a team in their league (So a maximum of 8 clubs from any one league).

The Celtic qualifying structure would have to be the best team from each nation (Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Italy) plus the best two runners up; which is why they don't like the new deal.

@APV1 "just look at the team's relative successes in their league, versus the Cups..." do you want to elaborate on that please?! I don't get your point, are you trying to say that because Leinster didn't win the League/H-cup double two years in a row, they didn't compete at both levels? or are you unknowingly saying the Celtic League is the best competition in Europe because Edinburgh made the Semi-Final... either way, man up and stop whining.

Posted 15:31 09th July 2012

qkram79 says...

@AVP: Out of the 12 years the Celtic league has been running Munster Leinster and Uster have won it 6 times. An Irish team has been in the last 5 finals and won 3 of them. Irish teams have won more league titles than H Cups so your argument doesn't hold up.

Posted 14:04 09th July 2012

jamesliveinhope says...

Martyn who??? As an Englishman myself I get dreadfully embarassed by ex-players and ex-officials airing their petty bitterness so publicly.

It seems odd that there is such a big issue over this, the English contributors to these thread have, for a long time, complained at the presence of the weaker Celtic sides (and Italians) clogging up HC groups ad offering byes to whoever is lucky enought o get drawn against them, conversely if the new system were to be effective this year there would be no Cardiff, Edinburgh, Dragons or any Italian side in the HC draw. Feels a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas.

The fact that there is a dispute would suggest that there is also going to be a re-distribution of money which is most likely to be the issue.

There is also a side issue of the disparity between a club, competing with a region/province, especially as the Scots have promised funding to their regions on the basis that they have a World Cup to win.

Posted 13:26 09th July 2012

magic_dragon says...

Lets be honest,the English teams struggle to get ouf of their groups these days,and the French aren't as dominant as they once were either,so adding more of their teams would only dilute the quality of teams competing. This is the EUROPEAN cup,not the English and French cup. The southern hemisphere giants must be chuckling to themselves.

Posted 13:02 09th July 2012

froggy73 says...

@qkram79 and all the celts: the problem is not about relegation (as I agree big clubs from Ireland, France or England rarely face relegations). But however having virtually averyone qualified in the Pro12 for the next year HCup whether French and English clubs need to fight week in week out makes a MASSIVE difference. Just face it. That is where the problem lies.

Pro12 is a training field for the Hcup games. This explains why the Irish clubs succeed (and please don't tell me it's because Irish players are better, I would take it as a joke). All I am prepared to admit is some French and English clubs could/should take the HCup more seriously than they actually do (Castres, Racing Metro, etc...)

Posted 12:05 09th July 2012

qkram79 says...

And I don't want to hear anymore crying about how it favors the Irish teams because there's no relegation. When was the last time Munster, Leinster or Ulster were anywhere near a relegation spot. The only time this has been a factor was during Edinburghs run last year ... and they still wouldn't have been relegated. Sour grapes from teams that simply aren't competing at the level they should be. England and France have more H cup spots than anyone else.

Posted 11:14 09th July 2012