Geech: Fear of relegation breeds negativity
Sir Ian McGeechan believes removing the fear of relegation could revolutionise the game in the English Premiership.
The former Wasps, Bath and British & Irish Lions boss and has been jointly-tasked with leading a performance review of England elite rugby.
Along with former UK Sport performance director Peter Keen, McGeechan - who is also the chairman of Leeds Carnegie - has been commissioned by the RFU to come up with a blueprint to improve English Test rugby.
His ideas on the game at club level will not form part of the review but 'Geech' feels the fear of relegation has contributed to Premiership games being too negative and believes club rugby in England would benefit from following the example of Super Rugby.
"There is an argument, and I know people disagree with me, that if you want rugby to be the best product then you don't have relegation," said McGeechan.
"If you want club rugby to be the best business then you give it time as a business to establish itself.
"It may not be just 12 clubs, if there are 14 or 15 clubs that are set up to be professional in the right way why not make a 15-club league?
"And then say for five years 'this is our business, we want to make it work, coaches - we want an attractive positive game, there's no fear of relegation. There's no kicking the leather off the ball and only playing 20 metres out from your opponents' line'.
"Then there would be no reason not to put the best product out on the field and that is one of the advantages the Super 15 has.
"They can do that without inhibition and you challenge players in a different way.
"The nitty-gritty of the Premiership is that it is a tough competition. Speak to some of the southern hemisphere players and it is the toughest competition you can play in because week in and week out you are working very hard to win games and it is very competitive.
"But are you getting the best product out of that or could it be better?
"Sometimes we have to have a more open mind about it.
"Remove relegation for that period and that gives five years for Championship clubs to get the model right and have the right facilities and infrastructure if they want to be a Premiership club.
"Or if you keep relegation, have the bottom club playing off against the top club in the Championship."
McGeechan and Keen will deliver their recommendations to the RFU before the end of the year. The former Scotland international welcomed the different perspective Keen's involvement brought.
"I can see why British Cycling has got to where it has when you see he was the instigator, and why a number of Olympic sports have delivered when you have someone like him looking at their performance programmes," said McGeechan.
"You have to look at everything in context, team sports are more than just knocking a hundredth of a second off a performance - in cycling or athletics that can mean the difference between a gold medal and being off the podium.
"Our review is looking at a positive way which collectively, within all the constraints and parameters, is the best way of taking the English game forward at the top end."
Comments
kybone says...
TheBaritone- I don't really think these relegation play-off games really work tbh. Most of the promoted sides make several big money signings after securing promotion, so just because you're not good enough to beat the bottom team in the Prem, it doesn,t mean that you won't be better than them by the start of the new season.
Posted 12:49 27th October 2012
TheBaritone says...
The most exciting games in recent years have been those to avoid relegation, rather than those to make the playoffs. Why not try a couple of seasons of Aviva bottom versus Championship top in a 1 off, winner takes all match at Twickenham?
Posted 18:40 25th October 2012
kybone says...
|I have great respect for what Geech has achieved in the game, he's like the rugby version of Sir Bobby Robson. But he has ulterior motives on this topic as i have suggested previously. He has no interest in 'improving the product' or providing the best ingrediants for a successful England. He simply wants to hand pick the teams that HE thinks should be in the Prem, then ring fence it to protect the top flight status of those clubs.
Posted 20:50 23rd October 2012
APV1 says...
@ 1st58 - in fairness to him, he was never employed to coach at Bath and was really dropped in it.
Thankfully we seem to be getting our act together on the coaching team front. Eventually we might even get some good results..!
Posted 12:44 23rd October 2012
1st58 says...
After his hopeless tenure at Bath, I don't take much notice of Geech these days.
Posted 22:07 22nd October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
its not coincidence that while Egland were on fire between 2000 and 2003, the English clubs were dominating Europe.
Northamption Euro cup winners 2000
Leicester Euro cup winners 2001
Leicester Euro cup winners 2002
Wasps Euro cup winners 2003
The clubs need to be accountable to the national team. They are the foundations upon a successful test team is built. You look at Johnno the player, did Clive Woodward make Johnno the player he was, or was it his time with Leicester and King County in NZ? PRL have to man up and deliver rather than blaming others. And if they refuse then the RFU have to look after the sport and make the hard decisions. I say give PRL a chance but make sure they know what's at stake if they blow it.
Posted 14:21 22nd October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
There's no doubt that the likes or Newcastle, Bedford, Pirates and Bristol will go nuts if they abolished religation. so they has to be a trial to PROVE it's working and that the quality of the aviva has improved, and if it hasn't there ought to be more at stake than just bringing back religation. I say give the clubs what they want under the agreement that they DELIVER. If they don't then maybe we look at revamping the domestic structure (way more sensible than blaming all your ills on a 6 to 9 match competition). Give them a chance to clean their house and then they can't complain if they are found wanting. There has to be a measurable goal at the end of the trial though definatley euro success but also I want to see the clubs held respsonsible for the performance of the National team so lets see some grand slams and high finishes in the world cup because thats what Wales have achieved since their revamp. We need to make the clubs accountable, You want to see them start to deliver then THAT'LL focus their minds.
Posted 14:10 22nd October 2012
Honestpom says...
Geechs, for once you're talking rubbish. Period.
Posted 18:30 21st October 2012
kybone says...
I have a lot of time for Ian McGeechan, but he's talking a load of rubbish on this subject. For a start we wouldn't have teams like Exeter and Worcester in the Prem if we had adopted his idea in previous years, and look how good they've been for the Prem. And what about the teams that may emulate the Chiefs and the Warriors in future seasons. I am in no way a supporter of the closed shop idea as it blocks the aspirations of clubs currently in the lower leagues. The idea works in the Pro12 and Super15 because the teams are not clubs, they are franchises that represent regions. Its a completely different set-up. Also- a league with 15 teams?! Great idea- a league with an odd number of teams. Stupid. The only change to the Prem that i would back at the moment would be an increase to 14 teams. But i think that could only happen if the LV Cup was scrapped.
We all know why Geech has his views anyway. Its because his plan would be to put Leeds back in the Prem then remove relegation. He's admitted before that this is what he would like to do. No thanks.
Posted 13:10 21st October 2012
Danatthecorner says...
I don't get it. He's saying this now, increase the league to 14/15 teams and yet everyone else at the end if the season harps on about player welfare. You can't have both. And of course its in the agenda of a Championship Club to try to gain access then close that route so why commission their DoR to do your research into the future of the game? Madness.
Posted 11:39 21st October 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
sorry Geech have to disagree.
The "quality of the product" will diminish significantly if, every week, another of the 6 features loses any meaning. You only need to look at the Pro 12 to see what happens when the lower sides lose touch with the play-off positions and when Super sides lose any interest in defending.
I've supported Bath for a long time now and "enjoyed" a couple of flirts with relegation and the season where you never really thought that 3 scores would be enough with 10 minutes to play.
Would I have felt the same if I was paying my hard-earned to watch a development side get thumped by a side trying to get home advantage in the payoffs or two teams in a dead-fixture trying to stay fit for the Lions/International/RWC.
What the "experts" need to understand is that the ONLY measure of product quality of any relevance is the bums on seats. Pretty sure that the English and French are the only professional leagues where that measure has been improving consistently.
Posted 21:42 20th October 2012
lardon says...
As a chiefs fan I would tell Geech to keep his views to himself,
I wonder how long it is before Steve Diamond starts saying similar things, and the only reason he is saying them is because hes is because hes trying to protect his investments rather than be a part of the sport of English Rugby,
Only 5 years ago Exeter were a Championship club through and through, Nobody would have thought they would achieve what they have achieved. If these Championship clubs are given the chance to succeed I guarantee some of them will. If the Pirates can ever get a premiership quality stadium built I believe they have the potential to be another Exeter, A closed premiership would IMO be terrible for the development of English rugby and turn the championship clubs with potential and talented players into little more than feeder clubs. I believe the way forward isn't in closing the league but changing the structure of these leagues and funding of the Championship to give these clubs a chance. As is always the case it always comes back to money and the financial gap that exists between the Premiership and the Championship, with clubs trying to avoid falling into the championship and failing to get immediate promotion back (Bristol and Leeds). The line of thought seems to be more from a business perspective than a sporting one. Relegation is what makes every premiership game an important one. I believe that if a team isn't good enough to survive in the premiership then they don't belong in the premiership. Geech and others are worried that as the gap is apparently closing between the Premiership and the Championship they are afraid that their team may get relegated and if they do they wont make it back up.
Lets not forget Rugby is a sport and we need to keep the integrity of it alive.
Posted 07:59 20th October 2012
sukkadoits says...
As a onlooker from the outside I think this idea, as revolutionary as it is, would destroy a great tradition of English sport. I know how much I love the final matchday of premier league football with all the drama of relegation and promotion, the premiership emulates this albeit on a smaller scale.
In NZ when we used to have 3 divisions and promotion relegation I remember it being just as exciting. When it changed to the top 14 and the Heartland comp it was clear that the bottom division were teams that were content to stay in the Heartland division. This situation does not exist in England. National 1 and 2 teams all aspire to make the Premiership. To take away such aspirations would be soul destroying for the lower leagues.
It is impossible to play running rugby in the thick of winter in the UK anyway.
I hate to sound pessimistic but i hope they can solve the perceived problem without removing promotion relegation.
Posted 05:38 20th October 2012
Waz4before says...
@ Warrier 7 - I personally favor a closed PRL but your comment of " if you remove relegation then a large part of atmosphere is lost" does strike a cord and there have been some magnificent relegation tussles over the years .. and reading some of the comments here I can see merit in both sides and maybe the answer lies in keeping relegation, increasing the PRL to say 17, 18 sides (but only play each opponent once either home or away), have the top 8 play off for the Grand Final and relegate the bottom 2 or 3 so promotion from the championship isn't the dog-fight for one place it is (just ask poor Bristol!) -
Plus your club Worcester (and now Exeter) have added so much to PRL that in-itself is a good defense for promotion/relegation maybe??
Posted 04:08 20th October 2012
Waz4before says...
@ Warrior7 - Super Rugby attendences vs. PRL is not a fair comparison! Many Super Rugby games are played in international standard stadiums with large capacities unlike the smaller, owned grouds in the PRL, so the "half full" comment is a bit silly. The Reds for example play at Lang Park with a capacity of over 52,000 and average almost 35,000 - so yes, half-full by your standards! The average attendance in (Australian) Super Rugby games is almost 20,000 higher than both Soccer and Rugby league and only exceeded by the dominant sport of AFL. So poor comparison mate ..
Posted 04:01 20th October 2012
Waz4before says...
ha, ha, crunchfit, that's a good one .. English sides competing against relegation didn't end up qualifying for the HC (only the Celtic League allows bottom-dwellers qualification ;-) and you look at the english sides that have won the HC I doubt if any were fighting relegation just prior to their success. I'm not sure which period of "English domination" you're referring to either, that seems to me to be a myth created by the Celtic commentators to justify a no-change stance on HC qualification perhaps??
Seriously though, I don't think it was ever given as a reason for superior performance but it may have been judged to be a significant factor in winning the close "must-win" games that relegation battles can inspire; there may be some truth in that as it certainly inspires more negative tactics but whatever benefits it may have brought it's been undone by Celtic nations ability to rest and rotate players ...
Posted 03:52 20th October 2012
melkdave says...
Cant see this this ever happening myself.It goes against the entire sprit of the game in England.Who lets be honest about it have annother clubs in the championship,who are nearly as good asthe premiership clubs already,as shown by Exeter and i suspect London Welsh this year.Having 2 leagues producing top class talant can only be good for England in the long term imo.Of course the present premiership clubs are going to kep banging on about doing away with relegation ,after all its in their interests,but not i feel in rugbys long term .or the fans
Posted 19:43 19th October 2012
alanatleeds says...
If we do nothing, at the end of this season we will have, at premier level in England, a no-go area between Leicester and Newcastle. There are lots of players of RU in Yorkshire and Lancashire but they have to join London or other Southern England clubs to gain success.
If England want to fulfill the potential of having the most RU players in any country they need to be all-inclusive. The north of England cannot be surrendered to Rugby League.
In recessionary times the English north-south divide exagerates making things tricky in thes parts.
Lets hope that a forward-looking all-inclusive policy is put in place because otherwise, as the excellent post by dilbertof explains, it ain't a level playing field and also the English national team will suffer.
Posted 19:35 19th October 2012
Warrior7 says...
Also, another point is about Super 15, yes it is great to watch on TV but half the stadiums are empty, and attendance in general has gone down. Attendances this season in the Prem havent been great for a lot of teams, and if the Aviva became like the Super 15 then what would that do to increase spectator numbers?
Posted 16:05 19th October 2012
Warrior7 says...
Coming from a Fan of a club that lurks around at the bottom of the table, if you remove relegation then a large part of atmosphere is lost. Some of our most memorable games are final day of the season relegation battles against rival clubs.
If relegation was removed we would have nothing to play for unless we were good enough for the top 6, which at the moment Worcester are not. Also I don't believe it would have any affect on the standard of Rugby being played, as this year although the Warriors face a constant relegation threat we are playing a better brand of rugby, as are most Aviva teams. Just my 2 cents, because you don't often hear from the clubs at the bottom.
Posted 16:02 19th October 2012