Disappointed: Jean-Pierre Lux
The latest round of talks between the stakeholders of European club rugby has failed to find a solution to the crisis facing the future of European tournaments.
The Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup organisers, representatives from the six constituent Unions, Premiership Rugby and the Ligue National de Rugby (LNR), met in London for the fourth meeting of the consultation process aimed at formulating a new accord which will provide for the structure and format of European club rugby tournaments for the 2014/15 season and beyond.
Premiership Rugby and the LNR have long been at odds with their Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italian counterparts after the English body announced in September that it had signed a new TV deal with BT which could lead to a new-look European Cup, with both they and their French counterparts stating their intent to end the current agreement in 2014.
No solutions to the current stand-off were found with further talks now planned for February 6.
"The meeting agenda included an evaluation, conducted by ERC, of the merits and the rationale for the proposed changes to the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup, as well as the impact on all stakeholders of any changes to the format and structure of both tournaments," read an ERC statement.
"While the evaluation provided the basis for discussion, the meeting ended without agreement. Jean-Pierre Lux, ERC independent Chairman, concluded the proceedings by calling on all parties to take time to reflect on their positions and to consider the collective objectives of the stakeholders."
Lux added his disappointment at the length of time it was taking to strike a deal, saying: "After four meetings, it is extremely disappointing for all involved that we have not yet made sufficient progress towards a new Accord.
"These tournaments have become cherished by the clubs, players, supporters and our partners. Everyone around the table remains committed to making European club rugby stronger and we are confident a solution will be found."
While February 6 is not an appointed date for talks on this issue, the board of the ERC is scheduled to meet on that date.
The structure and format of both the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup remain in place until the end of the 2013/14 season.
Comments
APV1 says...
@ J_HDK - I refer you back to m y first post and the link to the ERC website:
http://tiny.cc/nx78ow
The HC is for the elite, the Amlin for development.
The Italians chose to join the Pro12, no-one forced them. They did it for all the benefits that brings. But if that means their teams have to play in the Amplin, rather than the HC, so be it. Not so much "tough sh!t" as expecting teams to be worthy of an HC berth and not get one automatically.
And still no-one has offered a reasonable argument for the inclusion of Zebre.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, I think.
And having the RFU there might be no better. Despite their stubbornness and "interesting" business manner, PRL are at least competent. We may not like how they do things, but they are effective. The RFU is improving, I grant you, but it's still displaying hints of the old "Blazer Brigade".
Posted 09:53 19th December 2012
J_HDK says...
APV that is where the whole argument falls down.
The ERC Cup was set up to include the top clubs across the six nations.
That is the entire reason it is there.
It was up to each member nation to decide how their allocation of ERC cup places would be filled.
Prior to the Italians inclusion in the Pro 12 they would have automatically qualified for the ERC cup anyway with their best teams from the Super 10. So, now that two Italian teams are part of the Pro 12.. tough sh*t on them? Let's get real.
The format of 16 teams would increase competition for fewer places while still ensuring representation from each of the six nations. eg Unless Zebre can overhaul Treviso in the Pro 12, or win the Amlin or Treviso win the the ERC Cup... then Zebre would not qualify for the ERC Cup.
On a sidenote - If the RFU and FFR were at the table instead of the PRL and the FNR none of us would be rabbiting on like this.
Posted 23:25 18th December 2012
APV1 says...
@ J_HDK - I take your point regarding the rest week. Although, as long as each team gets one each, that's no bad thing is it? And for the best club rugby competition in the world to be extended by a couple of weeks, maybe it's a good idea.
Your version doesn't address my fundemental issue with the qualifying criteria:
Clubs should qualify on merit, not nationality. They need to earn their place in the HC and deserve to play the elite of Europe, not just get it because of the nationality of their team.
And that, I appreciate, is where many of us differ. I agree with the ERC in their belief that the HC is for the Elite and the Amlin is for the developing sides. The fact that the ERC say one thing and do another does bother me, but that's why these negotiations are going ahead.
And I have yet to hear a compelling or reasonable argument for the inclusion of Zebre in the HC. Until I do, I remain unconvinced that the current system is fair.
Posted 11:52 18th December 2012
J_HDK says...
Please stop and think!
4 groups of 5 is stupid. One team per pool gets a "rest week" during each ERC match weekend. It also means an additional two weeks of ERC matches per season. In an already over packed year that is just plain nonsense.
5 groups of 4 is similarly idiotic. It compounds the nonsense of the "highest 2nd placed" teams in a pool where 8 teams out of 10 would go through to the QFs.
One sensible and fair agreement -
HEC 16 Teams
4 French, 4 Eng, 2 Ire, 2 Welsh, 1 Scot, 1 Ital
HEC Champs, Amlin Champs
Amlin - 32 Teams
22 remaining teams from Top divisions.
10 teams from Eng League 1, Fra Pro D2, Ita Top 10, Spain, Russia, Romania, Portugal and maybe Ukraine. (prospective teams from lower tier leagues will need to qualify for their places through pre-season play-offs)
Pool winners from Amlin face of against 3rd and 4th in HEC pools in 2nd round of Amlin.
This really isn't that complicated people.
Posted 23:49 17th December 2012
APV1 says...
@ lawynd - but that's not true. It can't be - they said so:
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16008_8330079,00.html
;-)
Posted 14:25 14th December 2012
lawynd says...
@99call - I'm not sure 'competition' is what you can call the situation that Dragons and Connacht find themselves in, where their national unions effectively treat them as development teams for the other regions/provinces.
Posted 12:30 14th December 2012
99call says...
The thing is that the Irish and the Welsh already have a qualification criteria with the lowest placed from each union going into the Amlin so there is competition between the welsh and irish sides all year.
this should be extended to the scots and italians so they have to at least finish above their country rival to qualify and we give the other 2 spots to france and england
they get an extra spot each and the money that goes with it which is really what they want
Posted 11:16 14th December 2012
APV1 says...
@ chris21 - it's a variation on a theme, I suppose. My issue with it is the fact that one or more of those teams could actually be bloody awful. They may well be the best the country can offer, but they could still be rubbish. As a case in point, Treviso came 10th in the Pro12. Surely they'd be better off in the Amlin this season.
I still prefer the teams to have earned their HC place, rather than be given it by right, but I could understand it as a concept and it might be a potential compromise.
Posted 11:13 14th December 2012
lawynd says...
@chris21 - plenty of us have mooted ideas very similar to that, but because we're English it means our idea is automatically rubbish. ;)
Posted 09:06 14th December 2012
chris21 says...
I like the idea from kicknz and APV1 but would change it slightly. 6 English and 6 French and 6 from the Rabo, but only the winners from each of the Unions with the remaining 2 places to whoever finished higher on the table. The last 2 teams to be the winners of the HC and Amlin cup to make the 20 as suggested by AVP1.
Based on last years results the teams in the HC this year would be
Rabo: Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Treviso as the top Union Teams. Then Munster and Scarlets as the next highest on the table. Because Leinster won the HC, Ulster also gain entry as the next team on the table.
Aviva: Harlequins, Leicester, Saracens, Northampton, Exeter and Sale
Top 14: Toulouse. Clermont, Toulon, Castre, Montpellier, Racing Metro and then Biarritz as winners of the Amlin cup to make up the 20.
This would make the Rabo more competitive and keep the English and French happy.
Posted 07:18 14th December 2012
APV1 says...
Wasps 30 Bayonne 16
Posted 21:51 13th December 2012
APV1 says...
Ok.
Perhaps that was a little harsh.
But Sincero you really do need to wind it in a bit. Almost every post I read of yours has some anti-English nonsense.
Perhaps I should stop reading them and hope you grow up...
"Troll (Internet)
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
Hmmm. Bait taken.
I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.
(He's still a twat, though.)
Posted 16:55 13th December 2012
kicknz says...
There's nothing wrong with the English/French proposal. It just makes sense, as it's absolutely preposterous that Scotland and Italy get to send their teams automatically. The automatic entry math is very uneven: Scotland and Italy at 100%, Wales and Ireland at 75%, England at 50%, and France at 43%. The emphasis should be on the best vs. the best. A very reasonable solution would be for Italy and Scotland to have 1 automatic entry each, and Wales and Ireland have 2 each. Of course, if PRO12 teams win the ERC or ECC, then the league would get another 1 or 2 teams in the ERC (preferably the next best on the ladder, regardless of union affiliation).
If it were up to me, the ERC would be even smaller, at 16 teams. Given that there are only 38 legitimate, professional, first division clubs in Europe, 20 out of 38 isn't exactly very exclusive.
Posted 16:52 13th December 2012
APV1 says...
@ Norm - see my first suggestion for a realistic and fair version. It makes all leagues competitive and gives the weaker sides development opportunities.
Please justify Zebre's inclusion in the HC with any other argument than a quota based on nationality. Otherwise, why don't we have 20 teams, one from each rugby-playing nation in Europe?
If you can manage to persuade me of that, I'll think again.
Zebre should not be playing in the top flight of European club rugby. Neither should the team I support - Bath. But one of them is. And how does that make even a modicum of sense?
You don't need relegation and promotion to make a league competitive (although it works in England and France). But where's the carrot and stick for the Pro12 teams? There is none. Regardless of how they fare in the Pro12 league, they qualify anyway. It's nonsense.
@ 99call - I completely agree with your statement, "I just hope there is some form of settlement as club rugby in Europe will be alot poorer without a full european cup of some format"
And the strength of the AP was on it's financial performance, not the results. That's why they could afford to buy the berths. Individual clubs may struggle more or less than others, but as a league it's in a pretty healthy shape. But the whole post was tongue-in-cheek, as you well know.
;-)
@ Sincero - you're a racist nob. Of the 11 English teams playing, 6 won, 4 lost and 1 drew.
Points for English teams = 286
Points against English teams = 208
= +78 to English teams.
How does that equate to "utter humiliation of their club sides last weekend" and "You're no good so you don't win"?
Sorry, did the results and facts ruin your argument, you pathetic little pissant?
Your anti-English, racist bile is a little tiresome now. So p!ss off and join a hate group elsewhere and leave the rugby discussions to the gown ups.
Posted 16:39 13th December 2012
lawynd says...
@norm - the problem is, it isn't developing in most of the ways that a league should. No real television deal to speak of, poor attendances at almost every game, teams that are perennial whipping boys both at home and in Europe. From where I'm sat, it isn't really doing anyone any good, except arguably for two or three of the Irish provinces. People talk about cutting Scotland and Italy adrift but honestly, aren't they already in many respects? What about Connacht and Dragons, destined to be feeder provinces under the current format? Or even the fact that the Welsh provinces are unsustainable, in part because they can't get bums on seats?
A stronger Pro12, where games actually matter, is what is needed. Don't spout off about promotion and relegation, I haven't suggested it and your argument doesn't hold up regarding the AP, as ony four clubs haven't experienced relegation since the league began.
Posted 16:22 13th December 2012
froggy73 says...
@99call: fair enough regarding the relagation. I admit your point is valid. I'll take it.
But I also think as APV1 that 6 teams per league is a fair call. At least that would put spice in the Pro12 and I really think an HEC spot needs to be deserved, not granted.
Posted 16:06 13th December 2012
Sincero says...
Let's keep this simple: the English want more dosh (as usual) and more berths, but after the utter humiliation of their club sides last weekend, they fail to see that the problem lies with their own poor standards of rugby. You're no good so you don't win. Instead of getting better they decide they wish to handicap their opposition, and thus European rugby.
The Pro XII does not equate to the French and English leagues, as APV suggests- it's the only European league, it's international and represents 4 Unions. The English suggest 6 places for themselves, and 1.5 each for Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy. We laugh, and decline your idiotic offer. Thanks
Posted 15:24 13th December 2012
99call says...
APV1..Hmm genius I suppose thats one word we could use for your idea not the first one on my list and being that your league and I assume by that you mean the Premiership is so strong that wasnt actually Northampton and Saracens playing at the weekend as they didnt really strike me as being that strong.
Antway joking aside youre right Norm promotion is not always a given in the PL due to some lovely rules set out really to protect the big name teams, and someone correct me if Im wrong but Im sure Ive heard calls for promotion and relegation to be binned on a few occasions before but again is that not some teams trying to protect their own interests.
I personally would like to see a "super rugby" type season like they have in the SH or a full euro league with promotion and relegation take the top teams from each league and put them in div 1 and the rest in div 2.
As an Ulsterman I would love to see a season were we not only played Munster and Leinster home and away but also Quins, Sarries, Saints, Tigers, Clermont, Toulouse, Toulon, Biarritz, Ospreys, Scarlets.
Then have a second tier with Castre, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dragons, Exeter etc. you could have 10 or 12 in each div with 2 up 2 down at the end of the season
There would be no resting players in that set up and the rugby would be top class every week
Posted 15:08 13th December 2012
APV1 says...
Hold on! I've had (another!) brilliant idea!
Let's allocate places per capita of population:
(N.B. all figures are approximate)
Total approx. population of all countries involved = 270 million.
40 berths = 0.15 million population per berth
France = 63m = 9 berths
Italy = 61m = 9 berths
Eng = 53m = 8 berths
Spain = 47m = 7 berths
Romania = 21m = 3 berths
Portugal = 11m = 2 berths
Ire = 6m = 1 berth
Scot = 5m = 1 berth
Wal = 3m = 0.45 = miss out. Sorry. Never mind, eh?
Top 20 into HC, bottom 20 into Amlin.
So France and Italy have 9 each and England have the other two in the HC.
Ah-ha! I see you're going to point out that Italy don't have enough clubs to provide 9 for the HC.
Well here's the real genius in my plan:
Italy can either use clubs from lower leagues (let's call that player development) or they could sell berths to the highest bidder (let's call that financial development).
So what we'll end up with is 9 French teams, 8 English teams (because our domestic league is so strong, we'll be able to afford to buy the spare Italian berths - the rest of you can't) and 3 Italian (or other) teams.
I AM A GENIUS!
Posted 14:20 13th December 2012
99call says...
froggy73 I personnally have no issue with a change to the qualification format, my only grip is that the current format wasnt an issue in the days of Leicester and Wasps dominating the tournament.Now that Irish teams are dominating, and you note I say Irish and not R12 teams are dominating as the welsh have the same set of rules that we have and havent had any advantage from it, the system becomes unfair.
I think youll find that the Irish provinces would have no issue in having to qualify in the top 6 or what ever as they continually finish there in the league using a combination of top and squad players. If you watch the Scarlets, Ospreys or Blues they are putting pretty much their 1st team out every week barring injuries and giving the players an odd rest which we all have to do.
At the end of the day its not about qualification rules its about money, the english and french want more of it and if you gave them more told them to leave the format the way it is theyd probably accept it.
Lets be honest Quins and Biarritz must have been laughing when the draw was made as they got Zebre and Connacht, theyd have been thinking we can get 20 points of these 2 teams then win our home match against each other and we're in with 24, backfired a bit for Biarritz though didnt it.
I think the thing that hs got up everyone elses nose is PRL selling rights to a tournament after 2014 with no one in it even the french have said no everyone has to be involved.
I just hope there is some form of settlement as club rugby in Europe will be alot poorer without a full european cup of some format
Posted 13:42 13th December 2012