Set for reform: The Heineken Cup
Negotiations over a new deal for the European Cup competitions from the 2014/15 season will continue in Dublin later this month after a "comprehensive" meeting in Rome on Monday.
The meeting broke up after six hours of talks on the future structure of the European competitions with no resolution to the impasse.
"ERC Accord discussions to continue in Dublin on 30 October after six hour comprehensive meeting in Rome," tweeted competition organisers European Rugby Cup (ERC).
The English and French teams believe the European Cup's current format is weighted in favour of the PRO12 teams, with Irish provinces Leinster and Munster having won five of the last seven editions between them.
They insist no more than six PRO12 teams should qualify, although that would put at risk the involvement of Scottish and Italian sides.
At present, the two Scottish and two Italian teams are guaranteed places in the Heineken Cup every year, and heading into Monday's meeting they were not willing to compromise on that position.
The English and French clubs want PRO12 clubs to qualify on the same grounds as those in the Premiership and Top 14.
Now Rugby Football Union chief executive Ian Ritchie has thrown Twickenham's weight behind the Premiership clubs' demands for reform.
"We want to try and help bring that agreement together, recognising that it is very important to have a good highly competitive, meritocratic competition that exists across Europe," said Ritchie.
"I think we certainly support a view - most people do - that some change in the competition would be a good idea.
"How far it goes, what the nature of it is, is the discussion that has to be had.
"It is in the interest of everybody to have a strong and vibrant European club competition. Those are the objectives we share with PRL and most of the other stakeholders as well.
"It needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency and priority but there is time to resolve it.
"I always start from a presumption there is an agreement that should be reached. Inevitably it will involve some compromise on all sides."
The meetings have come in the wake of an announcement last month by Premiership Rugby of a TV deal with BT Vision worth £152 million ($245 million) over four years from next season.
Continental rugby chiefs say a clause granting BT exclusive live broadcast rights to matches played by Premiership clubs in any future European competitions from 2014-15 for three years is invalid.
In a statement issued following a board meeting at its Dublin headquarters last month, ERC said the "purported deal" was in breach both of International Rugby Board (IRB) regulations and an ERC board mandate.
The statement said it was "unanimously agreed" at an ERC board meeting on June 6 that ERC would conclude a new four-year agreement with satellite broadcaster Sky Sports for the UK and Ireland exclusive live broadcast rights to the European Cup and the European Challenge Cup until 2018.
However, following that ERC statement BT's executive director Mark Watson said that he was willing to create a new European competition when the present deal with ERC ends at the climax of the 2013-14 season.
Ritchie, however, confirmed that Premiership Rugby were in breach of their agreement with the RFU - and of IRB regulations - by not seeking clearance to strike the BT deal.
But, hinting at the RFU's recent apology to former chairman Martyn Thomas, Ritchie insisted everything should be done to keep the matter out of the courts.
"We need to park the legalities from my point of view," Ritchie said.
"The RFU should have an ability to approve whatever deal is in place. We have made that clear to PRL and we have not given that approval nor have we been asked for it.
"The whole issue of what happens with various tv deals should be secondary to having a group of people sitting around a table saying 'how are we going to sort this out?'
"My view of life is that you have to sit down with partners. We have to try and get a co-ordinated agreement. Is that possible, feasible?
"I haven't got a clue. We have to try. If we can't we'll see but it is early days yet.
"You can obviate the situation about legal action if you reach agreement.
"Most people would say any form of legal action is a last recourse. If it gets to the stage where it ends up with lawyers so be it."
Comments
7ton says...
APV1
Aah! Okay then. Sorry to have ever doubted you:)
Cheers!
Posted 20:11 11th October 2012
APV1 says...
@ 7ton - I think you're missing the obvious point - that I'm always right.
Posted 10:02 11th October 2012
7ton says...
APV1
I certainly agree with your first post here. All this has been well argued many times before and we just have to wait and see what the powers that be come up with.
However I have to take exception to your post where you say "It's amazing how many people can just simply ignore the ERC's own words regarding the purpose of the two different competitions. Including, it appears, the ERC themselves!"
As I have said before it is obvious that the ERC have a slightly different take on those words than you.
Yes the Amlin is used for development and yes the HC is for the "Elite" but it does not say that that it should not include the "Elite Clubs" from each of the European countries in the 6N and IMO that is what they intended. Whether the wish to change that we will have to see.
In any case these "words" you refer to are just taken from the promoting brand movie and story and like most promotions are prone to exaggeration.
I don't see how it can be amazing that others including the ERC can have a different take on these words than you
Posted 19:57 10th October 2012
LondonWasp says...
this is beginning to get all very boring...
to be honest im not sure what this is all about, my team hasn't qualified for HC in a while, so i havn't been keeping up with everything...
Posted 17:34 10th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
I've trained my friend's 6 year old daughter to shake a maracca every time stuart barnes speaks, it's brilliant!
Posted 11:56 10th October 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
@jamie the prop - welcome to my world, realised that Sky was costing more that a season ticket with my only interest being the rugby (leaving the rest of the rubbish to the sun readers).
Now enjoy as much premiership coverage as sky offer on ESPN for a quarter of the price with a pub visit for any European fixtures that take my fancy.
There was an Independent editorial that suggested that BT had done to Sky what Sky did to the BBC all those years ago.
You're right about the money, the trouble is that sports fans' loyalty is pretty well guaranteed (hence the change of kit every half-season) and therefore taken for granted when TV companies decide to rinse us for more money.
Posted 10:57 10th October 2012
APV1 says...
@ jamesliveinhope - wise words my friend:
"The competition is either for the development of European rugby or the best competition in the world, it'll never be both."
That's why we have the Amlin:
http://tiny.cc/dyiylw
It's amazing how many people can just simply ignore the ERC's own words regarding the purpose of the two different competitions. Including, it appears, the ERC themselves!
(@ JamieTheProp - traditionally the 6N matches are on the BBC, but you make a good point, especially about Barnes being a nob)
Posted 10:55 10th October 2012
melkdave says...
@PontySurrey
Sounds good doesnt it a europe wide salary cap,on clubs??But your forgetting the irish players arnt paid by their club ,but by their union the IRFU,they all have central contracts ,.The only players the clubs pays are the overseas ones,and maybe the acadamy .So please dont give them annother unfair advantage lol.As if abandoning their league programme isnt enough of one as it is ,knowing they will qualify no matter where they finishin the league .,So being able to play 2nd string and acadamy players for most league games .Even the scottish clubs have caught on to it now ala Edinburgh last year,11th in the league ,but HEC semi finalists .
@Sincero
At least youve come around to qualification on merit i see,But 10 berths from a 12 team league hardly qualifies as getting there on merit in most peoples eyes .But nice try lLOLOL
@mcdb06
OMG your post has all ready been discussed and refuted,by APV1 Aand others.Even the ERC on its own website says the HEC is for the elite clubs in europe ,and the Amlin is for development of clubs ect,Look on the ERC website if you dont believe me ,but its true.All we are asking for is for their own words to be true,with qualification by merit to the HEC ,the supossidly premier club competion in europe and the world.How can that be true when we still have national qoutas,giving berths to teams who get whipped almost every year.Every game should be a hard fought battle and capable of going either way full stop.
Posted 08:58 10th October 2012
JamieTheProp says...
I'm all for English and French clubs receiving a bigger piece of the financial pie (which in the end is what this is about) - if those finances are then used to develop English club rugby and players it can only be good for English rugby.
I am a little concerned though regarding a possible BT Vision TV deal - at the moment we can watch all rugby union on Sky (who despite Barnes do it really well) - if a new deal is put in place we'll all be paying for two subscriptions - one to watch league rugby and another to watch European rugby (whatever format that takes).
I am hoping that the Premiership has only mooted this second deal to strengthen their bargaining position and that ultimately the Heineken Cup continues in its current form with Sky but with the English and French clubs receiving a number of concessions that they want!
Posted 07:00 10th October 2012
Sincero says...
Simply put: you propose 6/7 berths for yourselves and the French, and 1.5 each per the remaining 4 Unions, who compete in the only European League around.
So... in short... short pier... long walk.
Ten berths stay. We can go on merit if you like, i.e. top ten. But we're worth every one. Why not improve your own shabby standards? We can talk to the French, but you English need to hush...
Posted 02:29 10th October 2012
porridge_time says...
mcdb06 says...
You are 100% correct in everything you said.
Posted 23:57 09th October 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
@mcdb06 oh go on then I'll bite - all England final 2007, finalists 2009 and 2011. When its not been them its been the French or the Irish.
The competition is either for the development of European rugby or the best competition in the world, it'll never be both.
@milkman - the difference will be that there will be competition for HC places within the pro12 meaning that Munster, Leinster and Ulster will have to turn up to more than 4 domestic fixtures per season and the weaker clubs will need to raise their game (which will do more to develop european rugby than their automatic inclusion as whipping boys in the HC.
@provyd the Celtic league format has changed significantly and regularly since in the period since the HC was founded. It was even (heaven forfend) a CLUB competition when it started (Swansea made the HC semi final and Cardiff the Final).
Posted 21:11 09th October 2012
papachinzo says...
Wow, all this again. 3 games and a Final is not and Elite tournament, its a blitz. What happens if the format is change and we see teams such as Toulon clean the floor and win the thing 3 or 4 times in a row. I'd love to see peoples responses then !!
Some people are going on about Salary caps; Leinster have a about 6 million to spend on players, 90% of which are Irish... the Welsh salary cap is 3m; The Ospreys will Rule pool 2 and to boot, they have a squad full of young Welsh players.
Posted 19:55 09th October 2012
provyd says...
"The English and French teams believe the European Cup's current format is weighted in favour of the PRO12 teams, with Irish provinces Leinster and Munster having won five of the last seven editions between them."
Presumably, then, the same format was weighted in favour of the English and French when they were winning it all the time.
Posted 17:48 09th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
RFU!?! Argh!!! Run away!
Whoa! Wait a sec... Hmm... They've stopped chasing us. They're starting to argue with each other...
"No! I'm the Chairman of the RFU!"
"NO! I'M THE CHAIRMAN OF THE RFU!"
"NOOOOO! I AM!!!!!"
"TOMKINS! Give me back my prawn sandwich you blighter!!"
"Foodfight! HAW HAW HAW!"
...Maybe RFU backing isn't such a great move given they reputation for amatuer back stabbing.
Posted 16:51 09th October 2012
APV1 says...
@ jamesliveinhope - "I think that the biggest mistake here (as always seems to be the case with English Rugby) is that too many people are pursuing private agendas by making this information public before it is ready to be made public and the sooner that they shut up and get on with sorting it out the better."
Hear! Hear! And not just limited to English Rugby either.
Posted 13:48 09th October 2012
Milkman says...
So the current format favours Pro 12 teams like Munster and Leinster yet the Pro 12 teams likely to lose out are the Scottish and Italian ones.................hmmm so please tell me how this will change anything then!! Seems to be me its all the about getting a larger slice of the pie in terms of revenue or basically greed. If so, could they not admit that instead of coming up with some moralistic argument which doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Posted 13:05 09th October 2012
mcdb06 says...
It comes down to what competition you rate more: The Heineken Cup or a Domestic League. It's got nothing to do with who qualifies. The RFU whinging about Rabo12 club involvement is nothing to do with it. Their inclusion is for the development of European rugby. English teams haven't really been competing in the H Cup for 5 years. If they were any use the RFU should just shut up because they're doing their best to destroy the best club competition in the world. Stop diluting your league with foriegn journey men and you might get back to the standards of the earlys 2000s. This is beyond a joke
Posted 12:52 09th October 2012
APV1 says...
I can't be bothered to type this all again, so my Copy & Paste skills are to the fore:
"Is anyone else getting a head-ache from banging their head against a brick wall?
I am.
We have different opinions of the raison d'etre of the two ERC competitions.
We have different opinions as to the best way forward.
The Fench and English don't like the current system, as they feel it is unfair. They, quite rightly and in accordance to the ERC contractual rules, have handed in their notice.
Both the PRL and ERC have signed TV deals beyond the current system, both of which are moot for now.
Some like a reasoned debate, despite the difference of opinion - thank you 7ton, as an excellent example of this. Some prefer to sling insults and self-serving half-truths to support their arguments - you know who you are.
I'm fairly confident that we could amalgamate all of the various ERC threads and the arguments, in what-ever form, will remain fairly similar.
And there's nothing any of us can do about it.
We are all beholden to the people who are negotiating on the behalf of the parties involved.
So let's sit back and wait.
And let's hope they come to a mutually-agreeable format, with all 6 nations playing Euuropean rugby and us lot able to watch some of it.
It has been said (and, no I don't know who by. In fact, I may well have made this up) that a good negotiation leaves all parties unsatisfied. Let's hope that this one doesn't and everyone's a winner."
This might be worth considering:
http://tiny.cc/tjswlw
Where-as this is completely irrelevant:
http://tiny.cc/maswlw
Posted 12:24 09th October 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
not going to go down the debate over who is right road - the only way PRL and Top 14 can lose this argument is if they stay put without any concession which strikes me as the less favourable option than just walking away (from their perspective).
This legal business over TV rights seems a nonsense though - "The statement said it was "unanimously agreed" at an ERC board meeting on June 6 that ERC would conclude a new four-year agreement with satellite broadcaster Sky Sports for the UK and Ireland exclusive live broadcast rights to the European Cup and the European Challenge Cup until 2018."
So ERC the body which owns the rights to European Cup and Challenge Cup have a deal with Sky, surely that deal and those rights will not change if PRL walk away it will just simply not have the value that it had when PRL were still in it.
And if PRL are on notice to quit, surely they become free agents at the end of that notice period if they choose to leave the fold.
The RFU are surely on a hiding to nothing, it would appear that there is some sort of protocol in place in terms of seeking their approval (presumably to avoid conflict between club and country deals) but I can't see that the RFU can expect to have got involved in the actual negotiation of the deal itself.
I think that the biggest mistake here (as always seems to be the case with English Rugby) is that too many people are pursuing private agendas by making this information public before it is ready to be made public and the sooner that they shut up and get on with sorting it out the better.
Posted 09:51 09th October 2012