Derek McGrath: Can't envisage Heineken Cup without English clubs
Organisers of the Heineken Cup believe it would be "almost unthinkable" not to have English clubs in a European tournament.
There is uncertainty over Europe's biggest club competition's future as its current format comes to an end in 2014.
English clubs, and their French counterparts, are currently unhappy at qualification criteria and scheduling of the tournament.
The English teams are upset that Celtic outfits can rest their players for domestic games as unlike in England, there is no relegation or promotion in the PRO12 league.
This unhappiness between the English teams and their European counterparts has led to fears that Aviva Premiership sides will have to leave the Heineken Cup and form their own competition.
Premiership Rugby Limited (PRL), the organisation representing England's leading clubs, also announced that they had agreed a £152million deal with BT to show domestic and European matches from 2014 onwards.
That conflicts with another agreement between European Rugby Cup Ltd (ERC), the organisers of both the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups, and their existing UK broadcast partner Sky Sports.
The two factions held a meeting in Dublin last week but could not reach an agreement and another is scheduled to take place next Monday in Rome.
ERC CEO Derek McGrath has hinted that European rugby's governing body would be open to some sort of compromise to prevent the English clubs from withdrawing from European competitions.
"It is almost unthinkable that could happen," he said.
"I think everyone knows how important the tournament has become in every single country.
"It (having English teams pull out) is not something we are focused on in any way.
"We have a two-year notice period for a reason, which is to allow us to understand where we might be going to. That is an open opportunity to allow people to understand what we might do differently."
The ERC insisted PRL do not have the authority to agree TV deals for tournaments that are played outside their borders and McGrath criticised the PRL for thinking that all the clubs involved would agree with their proposal.
"There was a lot of surprise and there continues to be in terms of the decision to pre-judge an outcome," he said.
"We have a centralised approach to marketing. That is what all the unions have approved and that's what is recognised under the International Rugby Board (IRB) regulations so to do things in a different way is not only pre-judging an outcome, it's also doing it outside the institutions that are set down and respected by everyone.
"While there have always been challenges, there always has been respect for each other's country and cultures, etc. This has changed the agenda."
But the PRL are adamant they were allowed to negotiate their own contract as part of a deal they currently have with the Rugby Football Union (RFU).
The RFU themselves are investigating PRL's claim, but McGrath believes they do not have the RFU's permission to negotiate a separate deal.
"The board can only reject a deal that is not receiving the authority of (the country's respective) union under IRB regulations," he revealed.
"We understand that no approval was sought so therefore the ERC, even if it wanted to, couldn't recognise any such dealing."
Comments
porridge_time says...
melkdave says...
The PRL has done its job ,in sucuring something if that happens thus safegurading english club rugby,that is their remit/job after all.Its not their remit/job to safeguard other nations clubs Hopefully a compromise ect wil be found and it wont ever be put to te test.
This is exactly what is wrong. As rugby_rockstar highlights this is pure and simply about money. Take a long hard look at the quality of product the PRL produces week in week. Do you really think that they have something to sell here, because I'd far rather watch the Pro12, Curry Cup, ITM, Super Rugby and T14 than watch the dross that comes from the PRL.
Posted 02:42 03rd October 2012
porridge_time says...
What next APV... England not wanting to play test matches, Six Nations or World Cups, because the other countries rest their players during their respective domestic leagues?
This is pure and simply down to money and sour grapes at no longer dominating the European Cup. It's an international club competition... one thing is for sure as Edinburgh and Glasgow get stronger they will begin to focus on competing for both the Celtic and ERC... unless their growth and development is chopped off at the knees.
Posted 01:46 03rd October 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
So the reality is, PRL and Top 14 clubs will not be in the European competition in its present format in 2014.
We can all talk about the whats whys and wherefores of their decision but, with both organizations on notice, it seems to be up to ERC to come up with a solution that keeps them aboard beacuse without them, The Top 14 and PRL will carry on regardless whilst the HC will simply die on the vine.
Posted 23:07 02nd October 2012
Waz4before says...
Really, is there anything more to be said on this topic! The last PR story on this produced a massive thread of mainly bigoted posts with very few people bothering to comment on the rugby. Both sides need each other. Enough said?
Posted 21:45 02nd October 2012
jaycee_111 says...
kybone
apologies for jumping in here but you quoting how 61,500 went to see the Premiership games and 34.500 to the Rabo 12 and claim the Premiership is therefore superior as more people want to watch. These numbers actually show the opposite. England has 2.5 million registered players all the Rabo 12 countries in total have 308,000. Now since those that play or have played rugby are the most likely to watch rugby the percentage is 3% in England and 11% in the Rabo countries therefore the Rabo league is more popular to watch among those that would watch rugby. Not even the English want to watch their own league it appears. So which one should be allowed to say it has the product that is more likely to appeal to people?
Posted 20:24 02nd October 2012
jaycee_111 says...
lawynd
Yes I do realise there has been promotion and relegation since the start that¿s why I said they have been fighting it since day one. They have constantly tried to get the RFU to change the league structure so there is no relegation; they are now trying to say that is how all leagues should be run because they are not allowed to change theirs, hypocrisy of the 1st order. In addition to trying to get the RFU to stop relegation to protect existing members of the PRL they give teams coming up a lot less money, half the amount for at least 2 years is it I think, and give large parachute payments to anybody relegated. They make up ludicrous criteria for teams being promoted that the current teams in the PRL didn¿t comply with however as you rightly said this has been overturned but L.Welsh had to goto court it was not done willingly.
Posted 20:06 02nd October 2012
Sincero says...
By the way, now that we're placing demands on each others' leagues... here are a few of ours:
Reduce the top 14 to 12 teams in order to fall in line with the other leagues in the European Cup, and eliminate the 5th-6th matches.
Introduce a salary cap across the board so top players can make a maximum at the club of their choice- choosing that club for affiliation, for quality of life or for tradition, rather than which Sheik has the most bags of oil money.
The English teams are each required to create and score a decent try once a month, or provide the people who pay to watch their particular brand of matches with ample hallucinogenic drugs at their expense.
More to follow.
Posted 17:48 02nd October 2012
Sincero says...
lawynd... that wasn't a particular 9-9... just an example. However, you mention Leicester (your most successful European team) and Sarries... who, week-in week-out play the epitome of anti-rugby, and in doing so, were your champions not too long ago. The English game has many dull teams full of over-hyped stars who play low-grade rugby. There are exceptions, but that is the rule.
And you also appear to misunderstand the IRFU's position on Connacht- they chose to give 1/2 the funding the other provinces get to Connacht, and have it as a development team. Whether you agree with that policy or not, it's got nothing to do with salary caps.
Posted 17:43 02nd October 2012
melkdave says...
@Lawynd & Keybone
Couldnt have said it better myself ,you both made excellant points.Which im sure the majority of irish posters here will totally ignore ,in favour of more ranting,and insulting of .those posters trying to have a debate,and put forward an argument for change to the present HEC format.I have only seen one post putting forward any kind of sensiable arguement against change to the HEC format.Which i and others answered,that the AMLIN was a better suited competion ,to bring tier 2 countries clubs into european competion.imo.
Posted 16:30 02nd October 2012
kybone says...
rugby_rockstar- You make some good points about the quality of rugby, but you forget one thing- The HC is not the be all and end all. The most important thing for any club in any sport is the bread and butter of the domestic league because that makes up the majority of the seasons fixtures. The majority of fans attending games will see their club play in europe 3 times per season unless they travel all over going to away games. Your point is that English clubs should adopt the Pro12 philosophy of throwing away half your domestic fixtures to make sure you're at your very best for your hand full of European fixtures.
You talk about 'fans being conned,. Well what about the Pro12 fans who pay there hard earned cash to go and watch there club put out a team shorn of 8 or 9 first team players, against another team also shorn of half their first choice players. The best way to look at it, in my view, is to compare the numbers and wht you will find is that over 61,500 attended last weekends premiership fixtures, where as just over 34,500 attended last weekends pro12 fixtures.
Posted 15:49 02nd October 2012
lawynd says...
For some reason my link was edited out. I'm sure if you Google, 'Connacht to meet IRFU over financial plight' then I'm sure you can find the article in question.
Posted 15:32 02nd October 2012
lawynd says...
@sincero - I'll take your Sarries - Tigers and raise you Treviso - Ospreys, Munster - Treviso and Dragons Blues. Every league out there has some dour games from time to time, that's nothing new and probably the weakest argument I've ever come across.
@PontySurrey - both countries have a salary cap, the French one just happens to be ludicrously high. As it is, the AP cap is ¿4.5m (after academy player credits - ¿4.26m without) with one player's salary able to be excluded. The Pro 12 doesn't have a salary cap! The Welsh regions instituted one of their own (¿3.5m), but this only includes the squads registered for HEC or Amlin Cup matches, and not academy or backup players. Add to that that Irish, Welsh and Scottish contracts for internationals are handled centrally and it's not really a comparable situation in any case.
in essence, Connacht appear to have a budget of EUR3m, with Leinster's being potentially in the region of EUR7.5m. If that's indeed the case, don't ever spout off about salaries again.
Posted 14:52 02nd October 2012
lawynd says...
@3in4 - because Gerry Thornley doesn't have an agenda, right? As it is though, the last two paragraphs (after he shot his bolt everywhere with his pathetic anti-everyone-not-Celtic vitriol) actually make sense, and are what most of the English posters here, myself have been saying now ever since this issue first reared its ugly head.
@jaycee_111 - promotion and relegation from the AP hasn't only just occurred this season, you realise? 21 teams have taken part in the competition since its inception (28 if you include those teams that only played in the top-flight in the amateur era), which is a pretty healthy turnover of teams. In fact, only four teams have never dropped out of the division. The London Welsh issue wasn't about promotion and relegation, it was about criteria for ensuring that certain matchday expectations were going to be met. I agree that it's ludicrous that the rules are different for those teams already in the division, but thankfully that's all sorted out now.
Posted 14:51 02nd October 2012
melkdave says...
How can the ERC say the PRL deal is illegal.It starts after 2014,when all the present TV deals have expired.As to the the endorsments/santions from the unions and IRB they also expire with the present deals .They cant endorse/santion what atm dosent exsit.People are also forgetting the BT deal is mainly for the rights to AP games,which is an entirly english affair and inside their borders.The provision for european games is only there if english clubs do leave the HEC ,which they have indicated they will.That having been said ,at least all sides are now looking for a compromise and a settlement of the issues ,lets hope they can find one.Otherwise it looks likely the english ,and most probily french clubs will leave Also exactly what happens if english/french clubs leave the HEC The PRL has done its job ,in sucuring something if that happens thus safegurading english club rugby,that is their remit/job after all.Its not their remit/job to safeguard other nations clubs Hopefully a compromise ect wil be found and it wont ever be put to te test.
Posted 14:50 02nd October 2012
APV1 says...
Oh well. Too late. Someone had to have a little peek under th bridge and lo-and-behold, out they came.
What a shame.
@ PontySurrey - Hear! Hear! But I think that has to come from the IRB. A cap on foreign players (in the squad and match-day 23) would be good too. Perhaps, like with the Rebels, some dispensation could be offered to the likes of Zebre, to give them a bit of a boost as they start out.
Posted 14:12 02nd October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
English rugby fans should just think about the ramifications of PRL sucessfully forcing the pro12 sides to do "what they are told". You are basically condoning english rugby to continue churning out sub-standard easily beatable rugby at the elite level. I was bored to tears watching the rugby on ESPN and SKY this weekend. even the so called prestege fixture of Quins vs Saracens was woefully lacking imagination and intellagence. compare it to the Pumas vs All Blacks and is was cavemen vs astronauts stuff.
PRL want to tire out the celts by stopping them resting their stars. which won't improve the level of european rugby, it'll drag everyone down to their level. England won't improve. england fans won't get anything extra out of it. its self defeating. No Northern Hem rugby fan is going to better off if the Pro 12 clubs give ground. We're in a situation where sucessful regions are being told to put square wheels on their bikes because it'll make more money. The rugby is not being given priority here and rugby fans are being conned. Think very carefully before supporting PRL. Prodfesional rugby is not just about making money. they want supplu and demand then demand is influenced by quality of product too and PRL's product is pathetic. PRO 12's is european cup winning standard. I'm English by the way.
Posted 14:07 02nd October 2012
PontySurrey says...
Perhaps the Celtic clubs should insist that the English and French clubs adhere to a salary cap across the board so that we have a level playing field?
Posted 13:48 02nd October 2012
APV1 says...
"We have a two-year notice period for a reason, which is to allow us to understand where we might be going to. That is an open opportunity to allow people to understand what we might do differently."
Both the French and English gave their notice, in plenty of time, that they did not want to continue with the competition in its current format. That was what they should do and was appropriate and fair.
The TV deals are both a little bit of a grey area, as no-one knows quite yet who has the rights to do what. Hence the need for an investigation and clarification.
@ 3in4 - I've just read that article. But would you accept that he might, possibly, have a particular bias?
I know you'll be able to pick out some of his baised vitriol, as counter-arguments ("they don¿t need to be bullied into a corner to appreciate this." is a starter for 10), but there was also a modicum of sense in there too:
"Yes it¿s true the example of Edinburgh progressing into the semi-finals of the Heineken Cup while finishing second last in the Pro 12 (and still qualifying for this season¿s Heineken Cup) does not seem entirely fair or reflect well on the competitiveness of the Pro 12."
"there¿s no doubt the Celtic countries will have to accept a compromise,"
"Ultimately, one imagines a new Accord will require several meetings, and will require a degree of compromise from the French and especially English clubs, which has hitherto not been very evident. ¿There will be a Heineken Cup,¿ forecast one stakeholder to emerge from the first meeting. After a sporting week when it felt especially nice to be a European, it would be nice to think it will be, and with the English clubs included."
But please will everyone read the ERC's own website? The HC isn't about development, that's what the Amlin is for:
http://tiny.cc/ijvjlw
Please?
Otherwise it's just going to be a field-day for the trolls.
Posted 13:04 02nd October 2012
Sincero says...
It's not unthinkable at all- it's very thinkable, and a very amusing thought at that. Nobody cared/noticed the English clubs' absence in 1998/99. Now the 'threat' is they'll take their brand of bosh it up the middle 9-9 draw 10-man rugby and only play with the Saffers?
Haaa. Make it happen. You've made your bed... now lie down in it and expect the world to stop... while we have a good laugh at you and carry on.
Posted 12:47 02nd October 2012
jaycee_111 says...
The PRL cannot spell hypocrisy never mind recognise it. They moan about the Celts not having promotion and relegation whilst they have done everything in their power to stop it in their league from day one right up to forcing London Welsh to win a court case against them this year to allow them to be promoted and force one of their own down a division.
Posted 12:10 02nd October 2012