Derek McGrath: Can't envisage Heineken Cup without English clubs
Organisers of the Heineken Cup believe it would be "almost unthinkable" not to have English clubs in a European tournament.
There is uncertainty over Europe's biggest club competition's future as its current format comes to an end in 2014.
English clubs, and their French counterparts, are currently unhappy at qualification criteria and scheduling of the tournament.
The English teams are upset that Celtic outfits can rest their players for domestic games as unlike in England, there is no relegation or promotion in the PRO12 league.
This unhappiness between the English teams and their European counterparts has led to fears that Aviva Premiership sides will have to leave the Heineken Cup and form their own competition.
Premiership Rugby Limited (PRL), the organisation representing England's leading clubs, also announced that they had agreed a £152million deal with BT to show domestic and European matches from 2014 onwards.
That conflicts with another agreement between European Rugby Cup Ltd (ERC), the organisers of both the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups, and their existing UK broadcast partner Sky Sports.
The two factions held a meeting in Dublin last week but could not reach an agreement and another is scheduled to take place next Monday in Rome.
ERC CEO Derek McGrath has hinted that European rugby's governing body would be open to some sort of compromise to prevent the English clubs from withdrawing from European competitions.
"It is almost unthinkable that could happen," he said.
"I think everyone knows how important the tournament has become in every single country.
"It (having English teams pull out) is not something we are focused on in any way.
"We have a two-year notice period for a reason, which is to allow us to understand where we might be going to. That is an open opportunity to allow people to understand what we might do differently."
The ERC insisted PRL do not have the authority to agree TV deals for tournaments that are played outside their borders and McGrath criticised the PRL for thinking that all the clubs involved would agree with their proposal.
"There was a lot of surprise and there continues to be in terms of the decision to pre-judge an outcome," he said.
"We have a centralised approach to marketing. That is what all the unions have approved and that's what is recognised under the International Rugby Board (IRB) regulations so to do things in a different way is not only pre-judging an outcome, it's also doing it outside the institutions that are set down and respected by everyone.
"While there have always been challenges, there always has been respect for each other's country and cultures, etc. This has changed the agenda."
But the PRL are adamant they were allowed to negotiate their own contract as part of a deal they currently have with the Rugby Football Union (RFU).
The RFU themselves are investigating PRL's claim, but McGrath believes they do not have the RFU's permission to negotiate a separate deal.
"The board can only reject a deal that is not receiving the authority of (the country's respective) union under IRB regulations," he revealed.
"We understand that no approval was sought so therefore the ERC, even if it wanted to, couldn't recognise any such dealing."
Comments
APV1 says...
@ 7ton - no idea, we'd have to take the ERC to task on that one. Perhaps we could get them for false advertising too..! Seriously though, I don't know. There is an obvious difference between what their website states and the actual facts of the matter over recent years.
Perhaps this negotiation will provide the opportunity for some clarity on the matter - I hope so.
Posted 16:56 04th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
APV1,
The Sale issue is massively relevant because it proves the Aviva format is no better than Pro12's. It won't up the quality of the eurocup. Sale's inclusion proves it. Sale's inclusion hammers home the inadequacies of Aviva's qualification system.
Sale's winless season is there in black and white on the aviva league table. Qualification is supposed to mean the best teams qualify to play at a level higher than the domestic league, which in turn means that the European cup is a better quality competition. Only its blatently not how it works in real life. in real life you have a nought from 5 club strolling into the european cup. So yeah, what is the difference between sale and Zebre???? Nothing so why force the Pro 12 to accept a flawed promotional system?
If the Aviva was serious about promotion then maybe only the top 4 english teams should be promoted. I guess Leicester, Northampton, Saracens and Quins would be happy but the other 8 water treaders would go nuts, wouldn't they. and not only that but less revenue would be generated because there'll be less matches and that means PRL deffinatley won't go for it, becasue it'll hit their wallet.
That is the problem with professional rugby in the northern hemisphere. The priority is milking the cash cow. The quality and spectical of the rugby comes 2nd. SA, Pro12 and NZ have much better balance. The pro 12 doesn't have a tv deal with sky but they still haven't felt the need to play their stars week in week out to get one. It not all about the cash with Pro 12, its closer to the world beating NZ model. Which is proven to be the best model. Wanna argue with a kiwi waving the web ellis cup in your face? Didn't think so.
If Wales and Ireland want to win eurocups and six nations titles and grand slams then they should keep their winning model.
Posted 16:46 04th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
where's the lies, untruths and insults Melkdave?
tell you what, I'll just cut and paste your first sentence, change a few works and come up with an equally relivent response.
LOL oh my god annother poster pretending the quality of the Aviva Premiership good enough to provide a foundation to win the 2015 world cup! LOL
Posted 16:20 04th October 2012
APV1 says...
@ rugby_rockstar - I accept that you have a differing point of view and some of it actually makes sense, even if I disagree. But the Sale issue is nonsense. The pools are based on last season, not this. If you follow even a modicum of AP rugby (and it appears you do), you'd know that Sale have struggled since pre-season with many issues.
This will probably be reflected in their European and AP success (or, perhaps, lack of it).
Zebre, on the other hand...
Posted 14:34 04th October 2012
melkdave says...
@Rugby_Rockstar
LOL oh my god annother poster bashing the quality of the AP games LOLWell your obviously wrong in your assumptions.Every league including S15 ect has dour and grim matches now and again .Also if Pro12 matches are that much better spectatcles ect,why oh why hasnt it got a TV deal.Seems that hard headed bussinesmen and compainies dont agree with you either,and dont try playing the populations game either,the TV compainies are very happy to show ITM/Currie cup in europe,and the teir2 national competion The IRB Nations Cup.Just once id like a poster arguing the opposite opinion to have a valid point ,rather than lies/ and untruths. insults .
Posted 14:24 04th October 2012
7ton says...
APV1
Yes i understand your point and am sorry to be a bit of a pain and ask you a simple question but if this is the case then why did the ERC not make the HC the way you think it should be?
Posted 14:14 04th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
I borrowed this from Planet rugby's who's hot and who;'s not. article.
"Sale: The Premiership's bottom-placed team's horror start continued when they suffered a 31-10 loss to Bath last weekend. That means that Bryan Redpath's men have now lost five successive matches and have gathered just one point from a potential 25 on offer already this season! Forwards coach Steve Scott became the sacrifical lamb when he was fired in the run-up to the Bath match and Sale CEO Steve Diamond has promised to replace him with someone "with a real proven track record at the highest level," by the end of the week. We await that appointment with anticipation. Next up, a home clash with Leicester Tigers."
The european cup Pool 6 is made up of:
Cardiff, Montpellier, SALE and Toulon.
SO MUCH FOR PROMOTION AND RELIGATION ENSURING THE BEST TEAMS PLAY IN EUROPE!!!!!!
Posted 12:58 04th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
Resting star players in the pro 12 is not conning the fans. Ritchie McCaw is rested in the NZ domestic cup and the early rounds of super rugby. Jean Devilliers ditto. Both competitions are shown live all over the world. Kiwis and South Africans accept this because they're hunting for bigger game. Super rugby titles and Test match trophies.
The biggest issue with the aviva premierehip and PRL is that they have delusions of grandure and they have financial clout and they are going to screw up the whole of europe with their twisted veiw of the world. The Aviva is not the pinicle of elite rugby, just watch a match and see for yourself. The European Cup proves it nicely because it compares the pro12 to the aviva and thats uncomfortable for PRL. They've decided the reason they can't compete is because the Celtic stars are fitter and fresher. Going on Quins vs Sarries last sunday I think there's way more to it than that but I don't think its fair that the celtic players should be flogged to death to prove that point.
Face it fans, making rugby players play every week for your gratification is short sighted and very selfish. Its battery hen farm rugby. Take a leaf out of the southern hemisophere's book. The Pro 12 have and its working in europe. Don't settle for second best, PRL are wrong and it'll be a tragedy if North Hem rugby takes this Asian sweat shop approach to professional rugby. It is all about quality Pro 12, don't sacrifice what you have achieved. Not if you plan to win any European cups and 6 nations after 2015.
As for England? the aviva isn't the high quality pinicle of rugby PRL make it out to be. its a foundation and its got some serious settlement problems and the cracks are showing wide at european level and test match level. Let's get our house in order rather than smash up everyone elses so our shoddy gaff won't get noticed as much.
Posted 12:47 04th October 2012
APV1 says...
@ 7ton - I think that the Amlin's and the HC's raison d'etre is absolutely fundemental to the debate. There are some posters who feel that the HC is for the development of European club rugby, where-as I disagree. It appears, to me at least, that the ERC also disagree.
As such, I think I have it absolutely IN context, having given a direct link to the appropriate ERC webpage and just copied and pasted the text. No slant, bias or anything.
You suggest that the phrase, "A Tournament that is the ultimate stage for elite European club rugby competition" could have a different meaning. I suppose it could when read alone. But when read with the full text and combined with the Amlin text, it's clear to me.
I appreciate that it is a fair point to debate, but I also feel that it is part of the debate as a whole.
If the ERC (re-) define the raison d'etre of the competitions, there would be less room for ambiguity. And, perhaps, I would be proven wrong. In which case, one of my issues with Zebre qualifying for the HC, rather than starting in the Amlin, would be null and void.
Let's hope those sat round the table discussing the issues have a more reasoned and open-minded manner than some of the posts on these threads, eh?!
Let me be clear. I do want a pan-European competition, with all 6 nations represented. However, I do feel that the qualification by nationality and a quota, rather than merit is unfair.
Posted 11:17 04th October 2012
porridge_time says...
The PRL clubs want to be able to compete and win the top European Club Prize, but in the way are the Celtic (mainly Irish) clubs have become too good for them. This has resulted in PRL clubs seeking big money backing and decided to use this as a level to hammer the smaller nations.
If the PRL get their way then it will be to the detriment of the smaller countries and European rugby in general... without labouring the point the PRL may have healthy number of people heading into their respective grounds, but their on field product is not worth paying for outside of their own borders.
Posted 01:45 04th October 2012
7ton says...
APV1
Yes I have bothered to read your link in the earlier post and find it to be rather a bit of trumpet blowing, chest beating and very self appraising. The best club competition maybe if we consider certain other world wide. comps to consist of provinces. But that's another argument and we better stick to this one.
I think you have taken its words way out of context and the term "A Tournament that is the ultimate stage for elite European club rugby competition" can also mean it includes the best clubs and stadiums from the major Euopean rugby countries. "pushing the geographical limits" can mean even further than what they are.
Now if the ERC had intended to make the HC the way you think it should be then they would have done so but they didn't.
Posted 19:49 03rd October 2012
7ton says...
Sincero
"introduce a salary cap across the board so top players can make a maximum at the club of their choice- choosing that club for affiliation, for quality of life or for tradition, rather than which Sheik has the most bags of oil money"
Now that comment I do agree with.
A bit hard to achieve but like in football with the wealthiest buying the best players we may as well have a game of Monopoly
Posted 14:16 03rd October 2012
lawynd says...
Also, I perfectly understand the Connacht situation; AP clubs have a salary cap of £4.5m, Leinster have a potential salary budget of ¿7.5m. Connacht, as the 'development province', still receive a significant salary budget to play with. The quote from the article I (sort of) linked, which you clearly didn't bother to read:
"At present, Connacht¿s player wages budget is ¿3 million, all of which comes from the IRFU. The other provinces receive more funds from the union because they have more Irish internationals and therefore higher centrally contracted wages.
Connacht sources stated the ¿3 million for player salaries was 40 per cent of the European champion¿s budget but Leinster chief executive Mick Dawson stated the figure of ¿7.5 million was some way over the actual amount they pay in player wages."
Posted 12:35 03rd October 2012
lawynd says...
@sincero - "that wasn't a particular 9-9..." Coincidence, since you were quite vehement in ramming home your opinions on that particular match at the time! As it is, whilst you have a point about Saracens (and even they are capable of playing expansive rugby - they just choose not to), Leicester were top try scorers last season in the AP with 69 tries; Leinster managed 48. This season so far, Scarlets have scored 17 (the same as Harlequins incidentally), Leicester despite the 9-9 draw and awful loss to Harlequins have scored 13.
The leagues really aren't that far apart, you chaps just want something to fit your preconceived ideas.
Posted 12:35 03rd October 2012
lawynd says...
@jayce_111 - PRL and the RFU have twice debated the relegation issue, and that's exactly what it has been - a debate. Something the Pro12 have refused to do on the future of the HEC so far. Nobody is trying to force relegation on the Pro12, that's rubbish and I can't understand how you've even construed that from the issues at hand. The issues surrounding promoted and relegated teams are another discussion entirely, but as I've said, I agree with you on that.
As for your response to kybone...really? There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. You've got absolutely nothing to back up those percentages! If you were to go that route however I suggest you factor in the dominance of football in England and look at ratios with other popular sports, including but not limited to, rugby league, cricket, golf and tennis. Oh, and also consider that the broadcast audience in England have to pay to watch their rugby, which is a barrier for some people.
Posted 12:34 03rd October 2012
melkdave says...
@Porridge_Time
How exactly is it wrong for people.organisations to actually do their jobs.Are you living in the real world i wonder??As it stands atm ,the english and french clubs will be leaving the HEC, post 2014 the PRL have sucured something to replace the income for english clubs IF that comes to pass.and your forgetting most of the money is for the AP rights which is a english only affair That is their remit and job.,Theirs absolutly nothing stopping the WRU,SRU or IRFU,and FIR, making a Pro12 organisation and going out there and finding a deal for the Pro12 clubs,post 2014.IF the HEC becomes dyfunct In fact i encourage them to do so ,No one has answered my question as to why the leagues cant dictate who shows their european games,why do we need the ERC at all.Also .remember the PRL/ LNR have been waiting for 6-7 yrs for their concerns to be disscussed,and debated,and quite frankly they have been ignorned.Now by giving notice of their intention to leave ,they have brought it to a head,and they sucured a deal IF and its a big IF they do leave post 2014 again that is their job.to look to what might happen in the future Im sure your employer would like to think you are doing your job ,just as well as they are.As for @SINCERO arguments on Connacht,about it being a feeder club ,by IRFU design being nothing to do with us english /french /welsh/ italiains /scots,JUST HOW HYPOCRITICAL CAN YOU BE.You bang on about fairness and how we have bigger budgets ect,Yet blatently deny one of your own clubs a leval playing feild , as far as funding is concerned, The IRFU also have forced players to go to Leinster and Munster from Connacht .NO IRISH POSTER SHOULD TALK ABOUT FAIRNESS on this forum imo till thats rectified. And yes i have tremandous respect for what Connacht have achived given the inbalance they face
Posted 11:56 03rd October 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
@porridge_time - I suspect that your missing the point - the celtic "clubs" are run for the benefit of their unions and ultimately their national side. Any season long league schedule will conflict with that and so, far from managing their squads several celtic clubs abandon the Pro12 in favour of the Heineken.
Thats fine, I have no problem with that but the Top 14 and PRL clubs do because they do not see the playing field as even in a competition that stretches their resources yet further in fiercely competetive domestic leagues where failure can be disasterous financially.
Whether the Celts like it or not, the Top 14 and PRL are "putting their house in order" because they feel that they cannot continue with the cup in its present format so if the format can't be changed they will walk away.
What you haven't grasped is that France and England DON'T have to accept anything that they don't want to because they consider that they would be better off without the HC in its present format (and have proven that they could plough their own furrow anyway) whereas ERC and the HC cannot exist without the English and French advertising revenues.
What is getting up my nose is that the French seem to be doing that French business thing of sitting on the fence whilst the other sides tear lumps out of each other and then siding with the winner having got what they wanted. Which is continually perpetuating the whole argument.
Posted 11:49 03rd October 2012
APV1 says...
Would someone who actually knows, please remind me of the purpose of the HC and the Amlin?
The ERC you say? That's a brilliant idea - they must be the ONLY people who know exactly what their purpose is, as they are the authority on the matter. Now, what is thay say?
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/brand_movie.php
Oh, I remember now! The HC is for... How do they describe it..?
"The best clubs and players on a dynamic and compelling stage.
A Tournament that is the ultimate stage for elite European club rugby competition.
It acts as the platform upon which the best clubs, elite athletes
and passionate fans compete for glory and success."
But what about club development? The Amlin? How does the ERC describe that?
"The Amlin Challenge Cup, where premier and emerging clubs compete.
A tournament that is pushing the geographic boundaries of the game of rugby...
It represents a real opportunity for silverware and success on the European stage,
broadening the horizons of rugby in Europe - for clubs, players and fans.
A fundamental part of the story of European club rugby."
Well, well, well.
So Zebre, a brand new team who need to develop, get plonked into the HC. And that's fair?
Edinburgh, who are so awful that they came 11th in the Pro12, also qualify, as they rested their players to ensure success:
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/16559.php
Do I understand Edinburgh's decision. Absolutely. Do I think it belittles the Pro12 and disrespects the other teams, players and the fans? Absolutley.
Will French and English clubs be in the European Cup in its current form come 2014? Nope.
But I hope all clubs, from all 6 nations get to play European rugby. At the correct level for them.
@ Waz4before - you're right. Rant over. The trolls will just spout. Those with opposing views will debate. But the decision isn't ours.
A wander into the sunset beckons.
Posted 11:13 03rd October 2012
pierredelot1 says...
Well reading some of these posts it's amusing to note that that Harlequins must be playing bash it up the middle 10 man rugby. Sadly though they are not far off the mark, there are English clubs who have set out their stall with boring physical, we are stronger than you type tactics. Happily in the main that sort of rugby hasn't got them too far in the Heinekin Cup lately and hopefully it will continue to be that way. Watching English rugby and the way some clubs go about their business is one of the saddest experiences I've had of late. Overcoached, no flare, boring and so it goes on. But this argument is about money and the money sits in France and England. Big crowds at Wembley, the same at Twickenham for special promotions. Toulouse last Saturday full house more than 30,000 in poring rain for a 8.45pm kick off. They can generate the cash within their own leagues. Thankfully the French have come out in favour of the Heinekin. As someone who wants to see England take a full and constructive part in European and International Rugby, there is one thing for sure. If they don't change the method of coaching and go for a more adventurous style, English Rugby will rest in the doldrums for years to come. Harlequins have shown what can be done, great to watch, free running, plenty of offloads etc etc, That has to be the way forward, but as these skills seem to come secondary to physical strength, lack of ambition, wit and flair you just wonder how long it will take English Clubs (This physical stuff generally speaking goes all the way down the leagues) to wake up, throw the current coaching manual out of the window and allow some free thought. How many junior sides now have play books? with moves that are rehearsed over rehearsed and not to be strayed from no matter what. Boring it's pathetic and goodness knows how they play that crap with a smile on their faces.
Posted 11:02 03rd October 2012
porridge_time says...
Your point is that English clubs should adopt the Pro12 philosophy of throwing away half your domestic fixtures to make sure you're at your very best for your hand full of European fixtures.
No I would say the point here is that the English clubs should accept that they like France have six places, Ireland three, Wales three, and Scotland and Italy two respectively. You are right though the bread and butter of each club in their respective country is their business... so England and France should get their own house in order as opposed to leaning on the ERC and Pro12 clubs to increase their chances of winning.
If the PRL pursue this then it will be to the detriment of the game not only in England but Europe in general.
Posted 02:56 03rd October 2012