Calling for change: Clermont boss Jean-Marc Lhermet
Clermont general manager Jean-Marc Lhermet has added his voice to the growing number of calls for a change to the Heineken Cup qualification rules.
At a news conference for the launch of the 2012-2013 European Cup competitions in France on Monday, French clubs re-affirmed that they want a shorter schedule and for the Heineken Cup to be cut to from 24 to 20 clubs.
English and French teams need to finish in the top six of their domestic leagues to qualify for the Heineken Cup and authorities from both countries have been calling for the quota from the PRO12 to be reduced to six teams instead of ten.
"Is it really appropriate always to have two Italian clubs in the group stage? Is it normal that some teams automatically qualify while others have to fight for their place? I am not sure," said Lhermet.
Former France manager and current Toulon boss Bernard Laporte called for the European Cups to be played in two months to allow clubs to focus on their domestic fixtures afterwards.
"A single playing window would be more logical to me," he said.
"Then we could move on to our domestic championships."
At the same conference, European Rugby Cup (ERC) chairman Jean-Pierre Lux lashed out the English Premiership, calling the £152 million deal signed with BT to broadcast European matches involving leading English clubs from 2014 "illegal."
The deal contradicts the ERC's deal with the current rights holder BSkyB but BT have suggested they could create a new European competition.
"This is shocking because it is illegal," said Lux told.
"The English (delegates at the ERC) did not say anything about how the money from the deal will be shared between the domestic and European competitions and how it will be shared with the other countries' (clubs).
"They opened talks directly with some South African and French clubs. This has hampered the negotiations. It is hard to talk with them. We may have to move on without the English, though I do not want it."
Comments
porridge_time says...
BiggyFint says...
You are 100% correct in what you say... and in addition I think that the SARFU would be foolish to get dragged into anything with the English... currently they have a great comp in the Curry Cup and their top players are exposed to Super Rugby which allows them to make that step up to the Test arena easier... going in with the English clubs will drag them back ten years.
Posted 02:37 26th September 2012
porridge_time says...
Of course the celtic unions wont like it ,as means their advantage of resting players ect will vanish...
Sorry but that's utter rubbish in my opinion... the fact that the English clubs don't manage their players properly is their problem. But I do agree that a dedicated window would be better... this however would allow the Celtic teams to prioritise each competition and in my opinion the Irish sides would still fair better than the English.... purely because they are better coached and player managed.
Posted 01:23 26th September 2012
Dannyboy says...
@AVP1 - You're right, I say English, but I really just mean the mongs trying to break up the Heineken cup. No national insult intended. I like the English, they're good people!
Posted 00:07 26th September 2012
Sincero says...
We can solve Lhermet's issues immediately, and I suggested this to the relevant people long before PLR started out on their hilarious quest.
Pro XII has 10 berths, entirely justified as the only European league representing 4 Unions. As it stands the Scots and Italians get automatic qualification. Make the league a meritocracy, ten to the European Cup, and two to the Challenge. Better league down the bottom, better cup all round. Simple.
You keep the European Cup European, and you nourish Italy and Scotland, while raising the level of both competitions.
We're worth every one of those ten berths and then some, as our record shows. It's also the right thing for the sport not to try and kill Scotland, Italy and Wales off, IMO... but hey... a leopard and all that.
But still... please... PLEASE don't let me dissuade you from your Saffer-sasanach proposal! Seriously... DO IT!!!!
Posted 23:47 25th September 2012
Sincero says...
Biggyfint: Top man. Hear, hear.
APV, do you remember the topic at hand at all? Your complexes are really preventing you from contributing to this discussion.
We're not talking about you ruining the world, we're talking about you trying to ruin rugby. If the fact that you display endless greed and disregard for the law while you're doing either one, that's probably not a coincidence, mind. BUT, could you please stick to the rugby! We're only interested in the current crime you're committing, rather than the centuries of crimes in your wake.
Topic: RUGBY!!! Situation: You're acting like utter bleeps AGAIN! Keep up and keep relevant. You simply can not defend the behaviour of the English rugby authorities since 1998, 2004, 2010, 2012... so you dodge the topic and complain people are judging you harshly BECAUSE you're English, and not because you're now famous in the rugby world for acting the bollox.
So, basically, one one level... you know fine well. Leave it at that. Ruin yourselves if you must, by all means... but European rugby is off-limits.
Posted 23:37 25th September 2012
Sincero says...
Please... oh please... PLEASE set up a league with the South Africans, P.L.R.. Please... The hilarity. The two most boring rugby powers in the world could unite in one hilarious league spanning the equator. Plllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasssssse!!!! Seriously. Make it happen.
I'm deadly serious. Call the sad bluff and kick England out of European rugby. The French have reason and thought behind them- we can discuss the situation with them in a sensible fashion. Hoist the English by their own ludicrous petard and leave them to hang and dry.
PORTUGAL! ITALY! RUSSIA! GEORGIA! SPAIN! ROMANIA! Your time to shine in a new competition. Let's see... the English had six undeserved places... one each for the first year, lads... work out the count after. Ok... deal done. BAM. Ha ha aha haaaaa haaaaaaaa
Posted 23:17 25th September 2012
Rosbif says...
that makes total sense Henry Fitz. it's the only good explanation. melkdave you MUST be a lawyer. always at the office hehehe. always on your computer. charging clients by the hour!!!
(seriously though, keep it up. i'm beginning to skip through the articles to get straight to what you write. you're prolific. and knowlegeable. if the lawyer thing doesn't work out for you, there's always a job at PR!!!)
Posted 18:29 25th September 2012
melkdave says...
@Henry-Fitz
Yes i was a lawyer, and former player,and in answer to @Carriag ,the ERC only has the rights upto 2014 ,that was agreed by all the clubs .unions and IRB santioned it.We are talking post 2014 where atm ,there is no agreement ,no club or union has signed up for the HEC post 2014,and the IRB cant santion what doesent exsitThe ERC has no rights post 2014 ,and selling what they dont have is technically fraud ,just like selling something yu dont own ..This is the whole point of the present talks,to get an agreement as to the future of the HEC or to scrap it for a new competion ..All the celtic posters are going on about the HEC being for delvelopment of teams in lesser countries,That was true and one of its aims.The question now is should it continue in that vain, comming upto 20 yrs after its inception the english ,and french say it should be more concerned now with clubs proving on merit they deserve to be there.IIt is supposed to be the pinacle of european club rugby after all,and the Amlin is now established for those that dont qualify on merit,so they are hardly going tomss out game wise..They are also asking if its time for it to be a concentrated competion.ala the S15 ITM/Currie cup in the SH,,this to me seems a resonable idea ,it works great in the SH,and alows clubs to concentrae one one competionat a time,meaning clubs can give their all ,and not have one eye on annother competion.ie the league.It also as ive said gives the oppotunity to make the Pro12 a revalent and meaningful league ,and the scottish and italian andweaker welsh irish teams just one goal/objrctive rather than trying to fight on 2 fronts as now.This is why i just cant understand all te resistance ,insults ect from celtic posters.Surly we all want strong competative teams at club and international levals ,this will help deliver them imo..
Posted 18:23 25th September 2012
HenryFitz says...
You're a lawyer then, melkdave? That's a bit of a shock. You must have a brilliant legal secretary, is all I can say.
Whether the English clubs' tv deal was illegal or not, it would be folly to exclude them. A European competition is unthinkable without their participation. Like it or not, we're all in this together, and just as Italy and Scotland shouldn't be punished in these troubled economic times, it could be ruinous to penalise the English clubs for their dishonesty and double-dealing. Without co-operation, the value of the product diminishes for everyone.
Posted 17:05 25th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ Dannyboy - you and Sincero should go out for a pint together and come up with a list:
101 ways the |english have ruined the world.
Shouldn't take long.
Posted 17:05 25th September 2012
seapointer says...
@ melkdave "Of course the celtic unions wont like it ,as means their advantage of resting players ect will vanish..In the longterm though it could be a god send for the Pro12 ,allowing it to become a revalent,meaningful competion /league if desired.in the future,like the T14 and AP".
now your talking rubbish - this celtic bashing, do the english ever tire of it yawn. better league with better player and managed better simple as that
Posted 16:37 25th September 2012
melkdave says...
@Carrig
You can hardly call qualification for the irish and welsh clubs ,as having to batttle for qualification.The IRFU has staved Connaught of funds since their inception ,in favour of Leinster and Munster.They have also delibratly moved quality players from Connaught to Leinster /Munster to make them stronger.Hardly a fair playing feild as far as Connaught are concerned At least the welsh teams havent concentrated their best players into just 2 teams though,whitch all credit to them for .But Newport Gwent Dragons ,have always been the poor relation ,in terms of income,and over the years it has taken its toll.They do have quality players D.Lydgate ect as an example,but just havent got the squad depth to really compete with,the likes of Ospreys /Scarlets or Blues .So again its hardly a real qualification battle.
Posted 16:33 25th September 2012
seapointer says...
dumping the best competition in rugby for a hybrid saffa-english competition - MIND BOGGLING
Posted 16:33 25th September 2012
bignoel says...
Most people are missing the main points;
- The English and French clubs have given their notice to withdraw from the HC in 2 years' time. The rantings of J-P Lux have not changed this.
- IF the French clubs stick with the English clubs there will be no HC in 2 years' time as the prospect of a Celtic/Italian cup is not an enticing one for TV or the sponsors.
- The Celtic nations and Italy either have to compromise or split the French clubs from the English clubs. This will take more than just awarding the finals in 2014.
Everything else is largely irrelevent.
Posted 16:05 25th September 2012
BiggyFint says...
Surely this flies in the face of most of the rubbish that has been said about french teams not playing weakened teams http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,9818_8108376,00.html
Maybe the reason that the two Italian teams and two Scottish teams automatically qualify for the HC is that expecting these already weak rugby nations to be able to improve and field decent international sides without exposure to top level competition is insane. This is all about English greed and the insular French obsession with their own league. Any talk of a compromised European competition being in the interest of the game is complete rubbish as all it will do is kick the weakest teams in the gut before they get the opportunity to rise from there knees. This is sickening and another indication that the values and fraternity that once existed in the game are in there death throws. If anything there should be a move to have a more equal representation of all six nations in a top European competition instead of trying to strengthen the two nations who already have the highest playing numbers and money. When all is said and done English teams have struggled against Irish opposition in the HC over the last few years because the brand of rugby that is play week in and week out in the PL in England is out dated. Having only the top 6 teams in the Rabo qualify won't change this fact and it won't change where the silverware ends up come the end of the season.
Posted 15:51 25th September 2012
bignoel says...
@carriag
you say that there is qualifying for Welsh and Irish clubs, but when was the last time that the Dragons or Connacht qualified for the HC at the expense of another Welsh or Irish club??
I don't think that this has ever occured. Unfortunately, those 2 clubs are "feeder provinces" which have no hope of qualifying for the HC at the expense of one of their "bigger brothers". Where is the qualifying from the Pro 12??
Posted 15:51 25th September 2012
Dannyboy says...
It's really sad to see the English trying to manipulate the situation in such an kak-handed way.
Bullying the Celts, rejected by the French, soon to be rejected by the South Africans. The English are now toxic.
Posted 15:28 25th September 2012
lawynd says...
@Carriag - exactly how difficult is it to finish above Connacht and Newport-Gwent Dragons? Whilst both teams are capable of the odd upset they've never consistently challenged their local rivals, who simply rip any of their quality players away to sit on the bench to keep them at the bottom of the pile. Really competitive qualification...
Posted 14:59 25th September 2012
Scrumpoacher says...
Get rid of T14 AP and Rabo then just have three tiers of club competition with promotion and relegation between them. That could include all the current clubs plus the up and coming nations clubs...
Posted 14:47 25th September 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
@carriag not strictly true, The Irish presently have 4 qualifying places by virtue of their success in the HC so Connacht are there regardless.
That's Connacht - presently 9th, previosuly 8th, 9th and 10th (last) twice and who have neither troubled or topped any of the top 3 Welsh or Irish sides in the history of the league.
Or Newport - presently 10th, previosly 9th 7th twice and 9th.
I'm pretty sure that, historically they have had to finish higher than each other to qualify and that once Newport qualified (ar tried to qualify) via a play-off. But neither clubs destiny has ever really been in their own hands as far as HC qualification has been concerned.
Posted 14:18 25th September 2012