Calling for change: Clermont boss Jean-Marc Lhermet
Clermont general manager Jean-Marc Lhermet has added his voice to the growing number of calls for a change to the Heineken Cup qualification rules.
At a news conference for the launch of the 2012-2013 European Cup competitions in France on Monday, French clubs re-affirmed that they want a shorter schedule and for the Heineken Cup to be cut to from 24 to 20 clubs.
English and French teams need to finish in the top six of their domestic leagues to qualify for the Heineken Cup and authorities from both countries have been calling for the quota from the PRO12 to be reduced to six teams instead of ten.
"Is it really appropriate always to have two Italian clubs in the group stage? Is it normal that some teams automatically qualify while others have to fight for their place? I am not sure," said Lhermet.
Former France manager and current Toulon boss Bernard Laporte called for the European Cups to be played in two months to allow clubs to focus on their domestic fixtures afterwards.
"A single playing window would be more logical to me," he said.
"Then we could move on to our domestic championships."
At the same conference, European Rugby Cup (ERC) chairman Jean-Pierre Lux lashed out the English Premiership, calling the £152 million deal signed with BT to broadcast European matches involving leading English clubs from 2014 "illegal."
The deal contradicts the ERC's deal with the current rights holder BSkyB but BT have suggested they could create a new European competition.
"This is shocking because it is illegal," said Lux told.
"The English (delegates at the ERC) did not say anything about how the money from the deal will be shared between the domestic and European competitions and how it will be shared with the other countries' (clubs).
"They opened talks directly with some South African and French clubs. This has hampered the negotiations. It is hard to talk with them. We may have to move on without the English, though I do not want it."
Comments
porridge_time says...
APV1...
Oh dear you certainly scattered your toys around the floor there... but if the glove fits as they say.
Posted 07:24 27th September 2012
7ton says...
I think Bath should have auto qualification for the next 2 years.
Appease the situation anyone?
Seriously it's the same old argument over and over again with a lot of pretence used to hide ones real desires. Fairness only exists if it suits oneself.
BTW sorry Bath fans am not picking on you but just using your club as an example
Posted 01:26 27th September 2012
Sincero says...
APV, every single word of mockery and scorn you deserve thoroughly. Thanks for the précis. Ticks and double ticks all down the list. Even the references to history are fair enough, because you bleeding well brought the topic into a discussion on: RUGBY. Now grab a hankie and get used to it... it'll be a tough year for you sasanach in the European Cup, and not one for those of a sensitive or nervous disposition like yourself. Oh, you support Bath, don't you? Never mind!
Posted 01:10 27th September 2012
Norm says...
Oh and before you counter with being able to rest players, That is up to PRL and RFU to sort out. You run your league we will run ours, and all nations will continue to play in the European competition, and not some elitist old boys club!
Posted 00:25 27th September 2012
Norm says...
I of course meant the good of the game rather than the greed of the few! Fewer places in the HC would mean more money for Ulster Leinster and Munster too, but I for one dont want money to be taken from developing nations like Italy and given to my team, Ulster, or any Irish province.
Do you think more money for your club at the expense of a team like Treviso struggling to develop the game domestically in Italy is fair?
Posted 00:22 27th September 2012
Norm says...
@ Melkdave
Your right, spain russia etc dont have professional leagues and it wouldnt work, but if what you so passionately argue for came to pass, you could soon add Scotland and Italy to that list! I am not here to English bash I am an Irish man who loves living in the South West of England and happy to say I dont subscribe to a lot of the tired old xenophobic ramblings on the pages. But I will bash the self serving and mercenary argument being made here because it is against the development of the game.
Italian game is developing, but still Treviso are in dire straits! London Welsh get to the premiership for the first time as a fully professional out fit, following in the successful track of Exeter, but only after a legal appeal, which had they lost would have sent them back years, and Argentina began in the Championship formerly 3N this year. What does all this have in common. It is all related to rudby moving forward and all these clubs and countries being brought into the mainstream. Cutting off the european lifeblood to Scotland and Italy is in stark contrast. And take note that most of the posters on here are Irish and Welsh by my reckoning, whose top provinces would both generally fill the top 6 of the Rabo, ergo we are in a major sense not arguing for our own benefit like the English and French we are fighting for our peers in Italy and Scotland, actually what we are arguing for is the good of the game of the greed of the few!
Posted 00:15 27th September 2012
BiggyFint says...
@ Melkdave I¿m well aware that those countries don¿t have professional structures. I¿m sure you¿ve noticed yourself that they are expected to compete every four years in a World Cup against countries that do. I suppose my point of view is based around developing the game while yours seem¿s focused on money. As far as flights of fancy I¿m under no illusion that developing professional rugby in new territories would be fraught with difficulty but if we took your view of maintaining the status quo then rugby in Italy wouldn¿t be professional and Argentina wouldn¿t be in the RC. As far as introducing international sides into domestic competitions to grow the game internationally you could take the developments in the Compenato Argentino as an example. As far as I know people in Russia,Georgia,Spain and Portugal don¿t live in mud houses and developing the game into these markets would only benefit the game in the long run. It¿s hilarious how in the same post you manage to call two people stupid and then talk about debating rather than throwing insults. I also find it hard to take the view of a man seriously who describes a competition that has produced 5 winners out of the last 7 years in HC and will provide the majority of the Lions test team as ¿irrelevant¿. As far as arguing the point about attendances falling in Wales I¿ll leave that up to the Welsh posters although I guess economic issues rather than a lack of Welsh interest in Rugby Union may be the cause. I can speak however from an Irish point of view. Record attendances to Rabo games have been set continually every year to the point where stadiums have expanded in every province and Leinster have to play many of their big games in the Aviva to try to meet demand. So I¿ll leave it up to you to make the case that the Rabo is not a sustainable competition.
Posted 23:51 26th September 2012
Sincero says...
Melkdave, Russia does indeed have a professional league, and, no matter how you pronounce it in your hilarious accent, there is only one F in professional. How is it you manage to be wrong about... well, everything? Are you the only sage in your village? The rest of that I'm assuming you wrote in your natural method of banging your forehead against a keyboard? Good chap.
Posted 21:23 26th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ Scrumpoacher - I try not to let others watch when I'm playing with myself. I can't speak for anyone else, though...
;-)
Posted 21:13 26th September 2012
Scrumpoacher says...
Again a three table competition with promotion and relegation between them involving both first/second tier nations. A second competition involving all clubs with instant knock out (think UK football league cup). Finally a competition where the individual nations clubs play each other either as reserve/development grade or full strength as they get knocked out or by their own priorities. The first comp will be the 'main event' to replace HC,pro12, AP and T14 etc. The the last thing anyone wants is to watch the English playing with themselves even more...
Posted 17:36 26th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ Rosbif - not my numbers, just quoting.
Posted 17:20 26th September 2012
Rosbif says...
APV, don't sell yourself short. 800 years. are you sure? sounds like a low number to me......
Posted 16:22 26th September 2012
crunchfit says...
@APV1
If people have a genuine argument, give a genuine response. If not, then don't. And if you chase someone for a response to your argument and they give you your response, surely you could have the decency to do the same. I'm not an anglophobe so please don't ignore me as you seem to be planning to ignore them. You're asking people not to label a whole nation / group of supporters, so perhaps you could do similar. Cheers.
Posted 15:59 26th September 2012
melkdave says...
@To Sincero and BiggyFint
Please oh please go and try and set up a european championship,with teams from Russia,Georgia,Spain,Portugal ect.I would love to see it,as of this moment those countries havent even got proffesional leagues or teams and very few even semi-pro teams.Talk about your wild flights of fancy,Im sure the TV compainies will pay massive amounts of cash to screen such matches,and that supporters will flock to see them aswell.And in 2-3 yrs all your clubs will be bankrupt and closed .At least try and have a debate rather than just throw insults, and rant try and justify your postions ,as i and others have done.As atm all your doing is making yourselves look very stupid .Ill even give you a hand ,the present Pro12 set up is good for player development ,the question is is it sustainable with falling attendances and revenue ??There something for you to argue your case on ,try it rather than just ranting and insulting people
Posted 15:06 26th September 2012
APV1 says...
Here's why I can't be bothered with this debate anymore. The Anglophobes have got their wish - another opportunity to have a go and not discuss rugby. The labelling of a whole nation and / or all of its supporters is shameful:
typically English and arrogant
Arrogant English as usual!
WOW the Enger-lish are looking pretty stupid now aren't they??? hahahaha BOOM
The greedy English amateurs
the utter arrogance and insubordination of your moronic bartering
English rugby is a laughing stock not only due to your endless stupidity
You're greedy and inherently dishonest
the greedy English
the English made fools of themselves AGAIN
your greasy tills and greed-inspired calculations
We all know about you English folks... what's yours is yours and what belongs to someone else is yours also.
just because they want more tv money for there own coffers
just pathetic whinging
throwing their toys out of the pram
Typical bitter Anglo/French behaviour
this boils down to financial greed
Whinge whinge moan moan - typical English
Pathetic
The English and French leagues are full of mercenaries playing for big fat greedy pay cheques
if ever there was proof of English whinging, this is surely it. whing, whinge, and more bloody whinge...
shameful bullying
the Arrogance of the these people knows no bounds
its really pathetic
trying to get there grubby little hands on every penny they can
Unbelievable arrogance
leaving them drown in the greed they so crave
the destroyers of a great game in Europe
I say sod the arrogant English
it is just arrogance
nothing more than pure greed
greedy English
Your arrogance is astounding
the English money-grubbing nation of shop-keepers
800 years of crimes against humanity
whining victimisation
Just like the English
The English are now toxic.
endless greed and disregard for the law
the centuries of crimes in your wake
Posted 13:23 26th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ Dannyboy - thanks for that. What most posters seem to misunderstand is that those of us defending the stance, are defending the underlying priciple, not necessarily the manner in which it's been done.
We all know that there's been some blunders (to put it lightly) from both sides - signing contracts with no "product" for a start - but it's the fact that England and France want a fair qualification system, rather than automatic entry.
I see the HC as a competition between the top clubs and the Amlin for the development. The Pro12 wasn't around when the HC was started and the respective leagues and club have failed, hence forming the regions and the Pro12.
Posted 12:53 26th September 2012
provyd says...
"Authorities from both countries [England and France] have been calling for the quota from the PRO12 to be reduced to six teams instead of ten." What a load of rubbish. There is no quota from the PRO12. There is a quota for Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales. Do you really think those four members will agree to having 1.5 teams each, while England and France get 6 each? And yes, we do need Italian teams if we want this to be a truly European competition, rather than a stitch up by the big boys.
Posted 12:40 26th September 2012
BiggyFint says...
I can't foresee a situation where the French and English won't be involved in a European competition as it's a winner and I can't really see any alternative. However if they do walk and the Welsh stay true maybe there might be something to be said for introducing two Argentinian teams and a best of the rest into a competition. The Argentinians are starved of top club rugby and need to develop rugby at home to continue their progression in the RC. The situation in South Africa with the Lions has shown that Super Rugby can't take any more teams so maybe this might be a solution that will please everyone and see the game take another step forward instead of the moon walking that the English and French are calling for.
Posted 10:40 26th September 2012
BiggyFint says...
I've observed over the last few years French teams fielding under strength sides in the pool stages of the HC particularly during away fixtures. If anything the shoe should have been on the other foot long ago and the French should have been chastised for not giving the premier rugby competition in Europe the respect it deserves. The progression on the Pro12 has seen an improvement in the quality in club rugby in the teams involved to the point where the teams like Edinburgh can beat under strength French teams. This should be something to be encouraged by any fan of the game and if anything it should be an impetus for the French to up there own efforts and not try to undermine progression that will see an improvement in the standard of the competition in the 6 nation if given time. I seemed all I read about this time last year was about player burn out and serious injuries and yet were in a position where we have to defend resting players. If there is an issue with too many fixtures then those with the issue should get their own affairs in order and if necessary reduce the amount of teams in there own leagues.
Posted 10:39 26th September 2012
BiggyFint says...
@ Sincero ...."Pro XII has 10 berths, entirely justified as the only European league representing 4 Unions". Completely agree with you. A European Cup implies that there is representation from across Europe. If anything there should be a greater effort to incorporate the Russians, Romanians and Georgians. Maybe helping them set up a situation where they could virtually field a "best of team" in European competition while still maintaining their traditional teams in their domestic league. I mean the French having a go at the Italian teams is a farce. What the hell let¿s not forget they've only been in the Pro12 since 2010 and already Treviso are a formidable outfit. This seem to be an argument between Pro12 teams that are centrally contracted and so take into consideration player welfare over the course of the entire season and the English and French leagues which are club first and only concerned with their own vested interests and care nothing about the players, the fans or the game as a whole. I'm not sure where I saw it either on this site or sky sports but last week I watched an Interview about Wasps where someone at wasps said categorically that the new owners at Wasps had bought the club with the sole concern of making money. I mean are these the kinds of people that we are going to let dictate the future of the game we love.
Posted 10:39 26th September 2012