Calling for change: Clermont boss Jean-Marc Lhermet
Clermont general manager Jean-Marc Lhermet has added his voice to the growing number of calls for a change to the Heineken Cup qualification rules.
At a news conference for the launch of the 2012-2013 European Cup competitions in France on Monday, French clubs re-affirmed that they want a shorter schedule and for the Heineken Cup to be cut to from 24 to 20 clubs.
English and French teams need to finish in the top six of their domestic leagues to qualify for the Heineken Cup and authorities from both countries have been calling for the quota from the PRO12 to be reduced to six teams instead of ten.
"Is it really appropriate always to have two Italian clubs in the group stage? Is it normal that some teams automatically qualify while others have to fight for their place? I am not sure," said Lhermet.
Former France manager and current Toulon boss Bernard Laporte called for the European Cups to be played in two months to allow clubs to focus on their domestic fixtures afterwards.
"A single playing window would be more logical to me," he said.
"Then we could move on to our domestic championships."
At the same conference, European Rugby Cup (ERC) chairman Jean-Pierre Lux lashed out the English Premiership, calling the £152 million deal signed with BT to broadcast European matches involving leading English clubs from 2014 "illegal."
The deal contradicts the ERC's deal with the current rights holder BSkyB but BT have suggested they could create a new European competition.
"This is shocking because it is illegal," said Lux told.
"The English (delegates at the ERC) did not say anything about how the money from the deal will be shared between the domestic and European competitions and how it will be shared with the other countries' (clubs).
"They opened talks directly with some South African and French clubs. This has hampered the negotiations. It is hard to talk with them. We may have to move on without the English, though I do not want it."
Comments
APV1 says...
@ 7ton - I certainly don't want the HC to have or become 2nd tier, quite the opposite. I want it to be the cream of the European club rugby crop. And that means that Bath miss out this year (and, perhaps, beyond...).
My objection is that I feel the Amlin allows full representation and development, the HC is being diluted as a competition.
Top 6 of Ap, T14 and Pro12 + Amlin winner and HC winner. If Amlin and HC winners are already in, next best two from Amlin.
20 teams, which is a good number for a competition.
Amlin has the remainder, making it an all-inclusive, albeit larger, competition of 24 teams.
All teams get to compete in a pan-European competition and all three "domestic" competitions have a competitive edge. That leads to the development of club rugby across Europe and a more exciting competition for the spectators. That leads to moe bums on seats in the Pro12, which, in turn, drives revenue.
I appreciate that the Amlin isn't as big a draw as the HC, so one could argue that there's a posntial for lower revenues for the likes of Zebre (who would start in the Amlin), but those revenues would be made up in the Pro12, because of the bums on seats.
Posted 16:15 28th September 2012
7ton says...
APV1
That's just sidestepping my point the world cup has as many countries involved as is practical. Likewise the HC which is the European club cup is represented by teams from the top 6 Euro countries which is practical.
There has been talk of making the WC a 2 tier competition but like most I prefer to have as many countries as possible involved in the main event. Likewise with the HC and it appears that it is your concept that the HC should be 2 tier. In any case good luck to your Bath
Sincerio
I have agreed with many of your sensible points on the subject of the HC in many of the articles over the past couple of weeks but it is really getting silly now.
This Paddy O'Brien/WC fix thing is causing you to lose credibility fast and that subject along with your reasoning has been well argued against and discredited ages ago.
Please! Lets stick to the current subject.
Posted 12:13 28th September 2012
APV1 says...
@7ton - taking your concept to the nth degree, shouldn't the Rugby World Cup be represented by all rugby playing nations? I know that a little facetious, but do you see my point?
The Amlin is for the development and the HC for the "elite" - that's why Bath aren't in it this year!
@ Sincero - your last couple of posts are excellent examples of the twaddle I mentioned before - thank you. But for now I'm not going to filter out the muck to see if there's anything worth reading in them. However, I couldn't but help notice this little gem, which really jumped out and demonstrates your remarkable paranoia and delusional thoughts. There is help available, please seek it out.
"The W.C. was fixed. Not a conspiracy theory... it's fact."
(Oh golly, I doo hope I havent made any spellink or grammer mistaykes, becos Sincero wil pic them up an widicool me, because he's a rude, nonsensical troll).
Posted 10:24 28th September 2012
Sincero says...
P.S. France were robbed of a World Title... YT footage can prove it... 5 offences at a ruck in front of the Paddy O'Brien chosen appointee and he failed to whistle for a potentially deciding kick. The W.C. was fixed. Not a conspiracy theory... it's fact. Anyone who knows the Laws... or the correct acronym for their governing body, without wrongly correcting others to laughable consequences knows that.... Haaaaaaaaaaaa
Posted 05:25 28th September 2012
Sincero says...
So.... APV... I was right originally, and you called me out on calling your clown college P.L.R.? You thought it were P.R.L.?
So the pedant that you thought you were gets spanked on pedantry he thought up?
Ok. Cheers.
Posted 05:20 28th September 2012
Sincero says...
'I picked up on it to demonstrate what a hypocrite you are by criticising others' typos and mistakes.
To quote another poster, who's opinion I actually respect:'
[sic]
haaaaa.
Posted 05:16 28th September 2012
7ton says...
APV1
We're really just going over old ground and as I have pointed out in a previous article your proposal to reduce the Rabo to 6 doesn't really do a great amount more to creating the type of "best club regardless of nation" scenario you think the HC should be about. (See previous articles)
Now I Wouldn't mind seeing the Rabo Qualifiers reduced to 8 but as long as at least 1 club from each country was guaranteed a spot. Therefore at least Italy and Scotland would be included and along with Wales and Ireland have the chance to compete for more.
Given that France and England each have a minimium of 6 with a possible 8 teams in it I think with respect it is a bit petty and mean to begrudge a Italian or Scottish or other team being included just because they don't quite cut the cloth.
Please do not take those words as any form of a personal insult. I'm just trying to stress my point.
Cheers
Posted 20:46 27th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ Sincero - amongst all of that twaddle you're spouting I managed to find a small modicum of actual sense and a reasonable debating point:
"... I'd much rather qualification be based on league position rather than nationality, as it would improve the league and the cup enormously. However, at the moment the newer Union is being given a helping hand, as are the Scottish, where the game is in serious trouble. If rugby were to snuff it in either one of the oldest Unions with all their tradition, or one of the newest, with their genuine desire to prosper, it would be a tremendous shame. As it stands, however, it's Welsh and Irish teams missing their qualification spots, not English or French..."
It's a shame you surround it with ridicule, nonsense and insults. All you manage to do is dissuade people from reading your posts and they will miss your point. So stop the constant barrage of balderdash and just stick to the interesting bits.
Please.
And stop lying, it's unnecessary and you get caught out - "P.R.L. actually stands for the professional Russian league" - nope. These comments were about the AP, so please don't try to suggest otherwise:
"Please... oh please... PLEASE set up a league with the South Africans, P.L.R.. Please..."
"We can solve Lhermet's issues immediately, and I suggested this to the relevant people long before PLR started out on their hilarious quest."
I picked up on it to demonstrate what a hypocrite you are by criticising others' typos and mistakes.
Stick to the topic, keep making sensible and reasoned arguments and stop trolling. Then, maybe, people might give a damn about what you post.
To quote another poster, who's opinion I actually respect:
"new_j4a says...
@Sincero, This statement says it all: "They just got robbed of a World Cup final through massive corruption." You are a delusional idiot.
Posted 11:01 27th September 2012"
Posted 17:25 27th September 2012
melkdave says...
@APV1
Nice post LOL,why i never thought to use ERCs own website is beyond me ,and i think would have saved me alot of posts lol.Thanks for putting it up .It shows my/our arguement better than any of my posts i feel.Perhaps now certain posters will understand where we are comming from ,and lay off the stupid insults ect
Posted 14:32 27th September 2012
Sincero says...
Zebre, by the end of this season, I would wager, would not deserve a place in the European Cup proper. That's where I agree with the sensible punters and utter clowns other side of this argument. I put forward an objection to the qualification process to the relevant authorities last year.
If, APV, you wish to know the thinking behind it, it's that the Italians need funding to nourish their game more than anybody- they are making great strides, and we wish for that to continue. The ideal being rugby replacing nancyball wherever possible. If Zebre were excluded and the qualification from the Celtic/Pro XII became a meritocracy with 10 berths (all more than justified) then the fear is that rugby in Italy will get snuffed out.
Personally I'd prefer to see Zebre grow in the Challenge, as it's more at their level at the moment, and Treviso earn their spot on merit. However, the difference in income is so great between the two that the thought on the matter is it would ensure the failure of the new club. So basically Connacht/Dragons suffer so Zebre can survive.
That said, the Frenchies can stay quiet on the matter, as both Aironi (R.I.P.) and Treviso have taken numerous major Gallic scalps to date.
In short, I'd much rather qualification be based on league position rather than nationality, as it would improve the league and the cup enormously. However, at the moment the newer Union is being given a helping hand, as are the Scottish, where the game is in serious trouble. If rugby were to snuff it in either one of the oldest Unions with all their tradition, or one of the newest, with their genuine desire to prosper, it would be a tremendous shame. As it stands, however, it's Welsh and Irish teams missing their qualification spots, not English or French, so you lot can put a bleeding sock in it. We're not complaining, so you certainly have no right to.
Posted 14:22 27th September 2012
Sincero says...
APV, as for copying and pasting, some of these discussions are by now on articles which are getting pushed back on the site- I'm just trying to make sure your efforts to ignore my mockery are futile.
Now to this ludicrous organisation... you criticise me for calling it the P.L.R.??? Because the organisation that misrepresents you all against your will is the P.R.L.??
No wonder you're in such an hilarious state of confusion over in Albion. I have very minimal interest in your league, but I managed to get the name of your set-up correct. P.R.L. actually stands for the professional Russian league that your intellectual equal melkdave (whose mother tongue is English, despite what you infer) coincidentally declared did not exist on this very page a few posts back. Small world!
Seriously, though... how is it you people spent 85% of your waking hours discussing rugby, while it seems to be a topic about which you understand precisely F. all. Incredible.
(APV- No wonder you thought they hadn't the right to represent you... you must have googled them and asked yourself 'here, these Rooskies have taken over our league, based their H.Q. in Moscow, and made us look a right bunch of fannies! That's scandalous!'.)
Don't knowing absolutely nothing about rugby stop you having multiple opinions on the topic, lads, by all means. Carry on, pip pip.
Posted 14:08 27th September 2012
BiggyFint says...
@ melkdave no worries mate. Things always get a bit fiery when the future direction of the game is under discussion. I agree with you that the Amlin challenge cup is the place for developing country's and over the last two years I think more has probably been done to promote the game world wide then has probably been done in the previous 20. Personally I love the format we have at the moment and the attraction of the HC is the added challenge of the top English and French sides. I wouldn't want to trade the English and the French for the Romanians and Georgians. As a proud Connacht supporter I feel i'm in a good position to add to the points you've raised. Nothing in sport as you know is a forgone conclusion and you might remember last season Connacht defeated Quins at the sportsground and in so doing knocked them out of the HC. The HC as a carrot for developing the growing the sport cannot be praised enough. Connacht is a stronghold of traditional Irish sports and the last two seasons of involvement in the HC which has seen all records for season ticket sales shattered and interest in the sport boom. Anyway the main sticking point for me is that the qualification system being put forward may result in no Scottish or Italian teams in the HC in the future, This would be extremely detrimental to rugby in these country's and in all seriousness may kill the sport off as the revenues lost will only exacerbate the attendance issues you've raised in the rabo. 6 English and French Teams in the HC and no Italian and Scottish teams is unacceptable for me. The Rabo is a developing competition and I will admit that sometimes way to much focus is put on the HC to the detriment of the league. This has a lot to do with the fact that the weaker teams don't have the quality in there squads to compete on both fronts. These changes will only widen the gap I fear.
Posted 14:01 27th September 2012
Norm says...
........... have 8 players in the england development set up. Last I heard such players earned the club in question 25k pa. Do this club pump this into their academy? No, they pump it into the first team to pay the salary of the growing number of imports they have signed. Now I ask you does that help rugby development? No it doesnt, and I do believe the agreement with the RFU through which this money is given is to reward development is it not. Like I said before, this club as a member of the PRL (generally capacity for all home games) have the wherewithall in my view to at least try and resolve some of the issues relating to player rotation. Why should the ERC accomodate their commercial decision making, when they effectively misappropriate ( in the spirit of agreement with RFU at least) moneys they receive from the RFU. This little case study is not a conspiracy theory either.
Posted 13:23 27th September 2012
Norm says...
Melkdave
I can only speak for myself. The immature tone of some of the antienglish posts are inevitable. Trust me it is not a tone I subscribe to, and I consider myself a passionately nationalistic irish man.
To you and APV1, yes the Amlin is for development and the Heineken is the pinnacle of the EUROPEAN club game, but really is prioviding a berth for the Italian and Scottish entrants going to detract from the tournament? I would venture no. Now does the Heineken provide a stream of cashflow for 2 unions in which the professional nature of the game is in a precarious position (remember we lost the Borders and Treviso are on the edge)? Yes it absolutely does in a way which with all the greatest respect, the Amlin will not at this stage do. And the thing is the clubs in question right now dont threaten the positions of at least 4 of the top 6 irish and welsh clubs so in the real world all the changes will do will banish them from the competition. Yes I think the Rabo should have relegation but RFC Bucharest and St Petersburg are so far behind even the Zebres of this world, who are you going to promote? Again look at the premiership last year, Newcastle nearly stayed up because the winner of the championship wasnt equipped to host top flight games and that is in one of the best supporting nations, actually the best, in the world. What chance do emergin nations have?
If the 3 yr old, (take note 3year old) does not evolve say over the next 10 years and start to product better results and a more competitive league then fine, review and ask the question then, but with things so precarious at the minute it is wrong, morally and in rugby terms.
I said i wouldnt point and say how PRL should run itself but one of the clubs I suspect would benefit from this who are not far from where I sit right now ( not Bath 7ton btw).......................
Posted 13:16 27th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ porridge_time - toys and dummies cast asunder. I'm gathering them up slowly but surely, but if you happen to find a stray Weeble, please let me know. It's my favourite.
:-(
Posted 11:00 27th September 2012
melkdave says...
PART 2
You have to admit it looks a pretty easy pool for Quins and Biarritz,even if they play weakened teams.That imo just shouldnt be in what is supposed to be the premier and the pinnacle competion of european club rugby.Every game should be a hard fought battle ,and always in the balance ,that way our clubs become stronger ,and though them our national sdes.This is annothe rreason why i see the AMLIN as a far better tool for teams to develop in.I also understand that rugby attences in Ireland are healthy atm.but thats not the case in Wales ,Scotland or Italy,and if they fail so does the Pro12 as a whole.Annother reason on argueing for qualification on merit ,hopefully give fans a reason to brave the wind ,rain and cold and support their team,and please god rising attendances and more revanue for the clubs,so they have similar budgets to the english.french cluns.Now hopefully you see why i support qualification on merit for the HEC and for it being a concentrated competion like the S15 or ITM/Currie cup.This measure imo allows clubs to concentrate just on the HEC and not have an eye on their league ,hence they can really go for it ,and with no easy matches ala pool 3example above ,no weakened teams fielded.So hopefully giving us the fans /supporters better rugby matches ,stronger clubs and stronger national teams .
Posted 10:52 27th September 2012
melkdave says...
@To,BiggyFint and Norm
At last someone putting forward a resonable argument for debate,rather than just insult posters ,and yes i appologise for the stupid remark,it was aimed at those throwing insults rather than you specifically.I also appologise for my mild dysllexia and my bad typing so please forgive any speling mistakes.I do however understand your argument ,that the HEC is used as a delevelopment competion for clubs in tier2 countries in europe.That was one of its aims ,and im for developing the game worldwide and in europe,and by and by its worked quite good upto now.You are however forgetting that the AMLIN cup is now an established competion,with TV coverage ect and that does have teams from tier2 countries already in it .One from Romainia and annother from Spain or Portugal.That i feel is a better enviroment for teams to delvelop in Rather than a competion which is supposed to be the pinnacle of european club rugby.I see no reason why the AMLIN cannot be enlarged to 24 teams ,6 from england .france and the Pro12 unions ,and 6 from tier 2 countries like Russia ,Georgia ect.As ive said im not against teams developing and playing against some of the best clubs around atm,but it just feels wrong for it to be done in what is supposed to be the premier club competion.To use a football annolgy its the differance between UEFA cup and Champions league.Now hopefully 5-10 yrs down the line clubs from Spain Russia ect will be strong enough to challange for the Heineken cup,and again people will question the format as we are now,but atm they are not strong enough,and thats a fact.I also feel that we are selling the HEC short by not ensuring itsthe best it can be ,with the best clubs always init.I mean have you seen pool 3 for the next HEC yet Quins ,Biarritz,Connaught and Zebres, now just who do you expect to proceed from this pool i wonder?? TBC
Posted 10:37 27th September 2012
BiggyFint says...
@ Norm "actually what we are arguing for is the good of the game of the greed of the few!". Couldn't agree more!
Posted 10:19 27th September 2012
APV1 says...
Cont...
Let me quote directly from the ERC website itself:
"The Heineken Cup is the most competitive club rugby tournament in the world.
The best clubs and players on a dynamic and compelling stage.
A Tournament that is the ultimate stage for elite European club rugby competition.
It acts as the platform upon which the best clubs, elite athletes
and passionate fans compete for glory and success."
and
"The Amlin Challenge Cup, where premier and emerging clubs compete.
A tournament that is pushing the geographic boundaries of the game of rugby...
It represents a real opportunity for silverware and success on the European stage,
broadening the horizons of rugby in Europe - for clubs, players and fans.
A fundamental part of the story of European club rugby."
Exactly as I have understood the purpose of the ERC.
So if the ERC themselves think that the HC is for the top clubs and the Amlin for the development, why do some of you suggest otherwise?
And, considering their own words, how can the ERC and HC justify giving Zebre (as an obvious example) an automatic berth?
Genuinely, I don't understand. I like to think that I have a modicum of intelligence (at least when it's my turn to have the family brain cell!), but this baffles me. HC = top clubs; Amlin = development.
??
Posted 10:17 27th September 2012
APV1 says...
@ Norm - I think there are some major differences in what some posters believ the HC is for. You suggest that it's for the development of the game, where-as I feel it should be the pinacle of European Club Rugby.
I think the Amlin is where the development should be. Anyone else aware of this pan-European club rugby competition?
The Amlin Challenge Cup.
Add in a more competitive Pro12 (by restricting the qualification to top 6, like the T14 and AP), and the clubs in the Pro12 will improve.
In the Ap there is carrot and stick. The carrot is a top 6 finish, leading to HC qualification. The stick is the threat of relegation. Pro12 has neither of these.
That's the biggest issue for me - there isn't a fair qualification method for all.
7ton, a little tongue-in-cheek I appreciate, thinks that this is about Bath (or whomever) getting in. I don't and I'm a Bath fan. We don't deserve an HC berth, as we weren't good enough last season. We are likely to struggle this season too and that's the way it should be. Bath might beat Zebre (I said might!), but we'd struglle against most of the top HC clubs at the moment. But I'm hoping we'll improve on last year's AP finish and do ok in the Amlin.
@ Sincero - for someone who wants to ridicule others' abilities to type, you really need to do better than just copy and paste. despite the fact that typos, spelling and grammar and generally accepted (it's a little rude to those for whom English isn't their first language, or those who may have dyslexia, or similar), you still insist on using "PLR", rather than "PRL". Pots and kettels; stones and glass houses. These are the things that spring to mind.
To be cont...
Posted 10:11 27th September 2012