Heineken Cup: Falling apart?
The Heineken Cup appears to be nearing its end after BT Vision boss Marc Watson revealed that a new competition is in the pipeline.
Following on from the groundbreaking £152m deal with Premiership Rugby that includes live broadcast rights for European games played by English clubs for three years from 2014, further doubt has been cast over a tournament that has already been rocked by news that English and French sides are threatening to walk away.
The clubs are unhappy with RaboDirect PRO12 outfits' recent glory and believe it's partly a result of a qualification system which allows them to rest their players during their league term. And chief executive Watson has now added to the speculation that the Cup is nearing a crossroads.
"We are looking to set up, or at least help set up, a dazzling new European tournament with a fantastic new format, with, we hope, all the best clubs," he told sportspromedia.com.
"And we've secured, from the English Premiership, the rights to that for the UK.
"That tournament will be the successor to the Heineken Cup, which is a very successful tournament.
"The Heineken Cup, under its current contract, has another season to run, and that will be the end of it, and we are looking to set up a brand new tournament from then.
"We saw in rugby an opportunity to own a sport exclusively, certainly at club level, and the rights that we've bought give us an opportunity to do that.
"We are hosting the Rugby World Cup in 2015 in the UK. It's a great opportunity in the two years running up to that, we think, to grow the sport.
"It's a sport that has got a long way to go. We were attracted by the idea of growing with it, and helping it to grow in the UK."
Comments
APV1 says...
@ GCP_JONES - I've been quiet because there's not a lot to add. The usual posters will blame the "Arrogant English" and demand that we're all hanged, drawn and quartered for crimes against rugby. The English (and French) will explain why the AP (and T14) is our financial bread-and-butter, and the HC is just the icing on the cake i.e. it needs us more than we need it. There's also the differences regarding the reason for the HC. I think the HC should be the best in the European domestic (or as close as they happen to be) competitions; which I believe will strengthen those competitions. Others believe it should have representation form all participating nations. They may not be the same teams.
My thoughts - make qualification for the HC merit-based and have a fair salary cap across the board (time for the IRB to step up).
My ideas on the format are simple - top 6 from the T14, Pro12 and AP + next 2 best from Amlin.
Other than that, not a lot to add.
@ melkdave - I've mooted the idea of a Rugby Channel before, but not like this. I like the idea of all providers combining their feeds. As 7ton says, Sky et al are expensive enough already.
Posted 16:30 17th September 2012
melkdave says...
@7ton
As it is no matter who your with SKY-Virgin or BT your paying extra for the sports channals anyway,Im hoping that wont change ,but we get a dedicated rugby channal,where the different providers combine their rights .,as i think that would be very good .Most probible wont happen though unfortunatly ,but we can hope.What most probily will happen is we will have a BT sports channal added to our sports package ,containg Premiership football and whatever as well as rugby
Posted 10:58 15th September 2012
7ton says...
Meldave not too sure what you are saying but does that mean I would have to subscribe to BT vision as well as sky, ESPN and a dedicated rugby channel to get all the rugby along with the other sports I watch.
That can't be good. Sky is expensive enough as it is.
Posted 20:43 14th September 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
Interesting point ov view @melkdave but its gone a little beyond that now.
ERC have sold the rights to the Heineken Cup to Sky beyond their present deal which is for the period at the end of the notice period provided by PRL and Top 14 for their exit, and are crying foul for PRL doing a new deal.
Seems a little weird as, if PRL clubs aren't in the HC any more, then they can sell the rights of their own competition or any other that they hold TV rights to to whoever they want.
Now what interests me is what Sky believe that they have bought, and what the BT vision package looks like in terms of distribution - is it just the PRL rights to whatever their version of the European cup is? Have Sky bought the rights to a Pro 12 version of the HCup.
The "I" editorial seems to suggest that BT have done to Sky what Sky did to the BBC over the European TV rights.
Posted 18:13 14th September 2012
GCP_JONES says...
@jamesliveinhope...
I have read various articles quoting the budgets of the french clubs, I stand over those figures maybe PR could comment on their budgets.
To run our national team, 4 professional sides and funding the amateur game runs to 33 million euro's. their is a situation in Ireland where a professional sports person who is resident in Ireland can claim a tax rebate when they retire but not sure how much they get.
Clermont are financed by Michelin tyres for example. if people dispute the figures maybe they could do a bit research. but it cannot be ignored IMO
Posted 17:32 14th September 2012
melkdave says...
Surly BTVision are going to need more than just english clubs for a european cup /competion.They are talking about the best clubs in europe after all. .I think they are really talking about a new competion replacing the HEC and its present format ie clubs qualify by merit from the exsiting leagues rather than as it is now ,With it being broadcast as now on all the platforms ,maybe by a dedicated rugby channal,makes more sense to me that way .Rather than it being just on BT Vision. That could be a god send BT can own the english club games ect ,SKY the Pro12 and ESPN the french T14 games ,with internationals and S15 as per present agreements.Everyone wins that way,as ALL the clubs all get extra revenue the Pro12 becomes revalent and generates meaningful income from the tv deal,,and we fans get a dedicated channal showing rugby from across the world live or at least highlights,wouldnt be nice to see the Pacific 5 nations games or the IRB Nations cup games ect as well as what we have now??Guess we will just have to wait and see what happens ,otherwise its going to be a mess of titanic poporsions .
Posted 15:21 14th September 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
@GCP jones, I think its because we tend not to offer opinion on things we don't know - pity some other posters can't operate on the same basis.
That said, if your numbers are correct, I think I would want a better return if I was paying that sort of money in salaries and if I felt that the playing field wasn't level I'd want to get out
Not sure of the Irish or Welsh budget system but don't they receive a significant chunk of their funding from their Union?
And haven't the Welsh regions supplemented their squads from Principality Premiership clubs when required.
Posted 14:58 14th September 2012
TVaddict says...
@GCP_JONES
The french clubs do far too big a budget, though I think their international game will suffer because of it.
@pembs
Your idea that the players themselves will get involved is a bit hopeful. I doubt any of the premiership players voted for all this stuff.
Posted 14:15 14th September 2012
Monkeyboy says...
So the English perceive the Heineken Cup as the premier club tournament and are happy to say a big F you to either the Italians, Scots or Welsh. There may be a case for saying that only 1 each from those 2 countries can qualify, but thats not the point with the PRL, it's all about money, control & brinkmanship. Rugby used to take pride in being fair & equal. Alas the English are trampling all over it and have no contingency to grow the game. Only their bank balance.
Posted 14:12 14th September 2012
GCP_JONES says...
@nabberuk.... (Melkdave, APV1,English Rugby Fans and Planet Rugby)
How come none of you as-well-as the editor/people running this web-site are refusing to comment on the budgets of the French clubs, I'm not one for conspiracy theories but your silence on the questions of huge budgets and being bankrolled by big business is DEAFENING..
Toulouse 28 million euro, clermont 17 million Toulon god knows how much, the list goes on.
Posted 12:57 14th September 2012
pembs says...
@ jamesliveinhope can't recall saying that prl stated that. Also if bt broadcast to the whole of the UK and only English clubs are involved then its only an English competition. I think sky broadcast one like it now called the aviva premiership. It's an amazing competition that shows off the best over the hill foreign players from across the globe.
Posted 11:54 14th September 2012
nabberuk says...
"@nabberuk: of course everyone is taking the side of their own nation. Everyone here has clearly forgotten the reason the h cup was created and that was to give top quality match experience to the players of all the 6 nations to allow them to play against and learn from each other and thus help improve their national side.
This has been demonstrated quite well in the fact that there has been 4 different winners in the past 4 years of the six nations. If italy and scotland lose out on h cup rugby they will only get worse ( hard to imagine i know ) and then the english will want them kicked out of the 6N.
If we start to close top quality competition off to all but a few of the biggest clubs rugby viewership will shrink and that is not good for the game as nabberuk and so many others claim is their main concern"
You see, i and many others have always viewed it as a premier tournament, i don't think anyone should get a free entry. Clubs should earn the right to be in it.
Posted 11:52 14th September 2012
nabberuk says...
"You cannot defend the actions of the CEO of Premiership Rugby,it is just arrogance, and ego running wild.they have isolated themselves with this supposed agreement with BT Vision"
Also i don't agree with this, business is business and there going to try and get the best possible deal for themselves and the competition. It remains to be seen if they have a legally watertight case. Suggesting it's arrogance is pretty stupid.
Posted 11:46 14th September 2012
nabberuk says...
"pembs says...
nabberuk, the English stance on this is not for the greater game, its for the English interest only"
You could say the same about the Celtic nations too, they don't want to even negotiate about improving the HC. Why is that? Becuase as it currently stands, it's good for them.
Posted 11:43 14th September 2012
GCP_JONES says...
@nabberuk....
Your right Leicester did field a strong team against London Welsh, the points raised about having to qualify I'm more or less in agreement with, I personally think it would make the PRO 12 a better league.But yet agian I will state that the elelphant in the room is the HUGE budgets of the French, you can moan alll you like about resting players,earmarking particular matches, but you can't justify not including an annual budget of ¿28million(Toulouse) on the agenda of an equal playing field.
You cannot defend the actions of the CEO of Premiership Rugby,it is just arrogance, and ego running wild.they have isolated themselves with this supposed agreement with BT Vision,
Calling Melkdave, APV1 and other English posters you being very silent about this latest development(if you can call it that).
Maybe the so-called celtic unions should threaten to withdraw their players from the point-less lions tour of Australia.
Posted 11:20 14th September 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
@derm - I suspect your estimation of the Celtic players propensity for giving a monkeys are a little high.
Regrettably, I suspect that the HC as we know it is already in its death throes and, if the Celts don't come aboard with whatever alternative is on the table (and there is nothing in the report to suggest that they haven't), the lack of money will soon see the best Celtic players all operating in England and France anyway.
A lot of posters suggesting what the Celtic unions should do about it if it happens - the reality is there isn't much that they can.
I also suspect that we will see a new cup with an increased English and French presence, an Irish presence and the remaining places up for grabs on a qualification system.
@pembs England don't have the rights to the whole of the UK, these are BT Visions words not PRL's - BT Vision will broadcast to the whole of the UK and, if only English clubs are in it..... .
Posted 10:55 14th September 2012
kid_diablo says...
@nabberuk: of course everyone is taking the side of their own nation. Everyone here has clearly forgotten the reason the h cup was created and that was to give top quality match experience to the players of all the 6 nations to allow them to play against and learn from each other and thus help improve their national side.
This has been demonstrated quite well in the fact that there has been 4 different winners in the past 4 years of the six nations. If italy and scotland lose out on h cup rugby they will only get worse ( hard to imagine i know ) and then the english will want them kicked out of the 6N.
If we start to close top quality competition off to all but a few of the biggest clubs rugby viewership will shrink and that is not good for the game as nabberuk and so many others claim is their main concern
Posted 10:32 14th September 2012
pembs says...
nabberuk, the English stance on this is not for the greater game, its for the English interest only
Posted 10:24 14th September 2012
nabberuk says...
@derm
Leicester fielded a weakened team against Welsh? Well news to me and everyone else.
I tell you what, there's so much rubbish being spouted by you Celts. Some of the comments on here make some of you sound like you havent got a clue! Nobody seems to be thinking of the greater game, everyones comments seem to favour there home nation.
Posted 09:35 14th September 2012
derm says...
@jamesliveinhope, your comment is very true but by pulling out the RWC, it would demean the RWC and make it a sham and it would force the IRB to interact.
I still believe the HC can be salvaged but it probably will mean the top 6 teams in the Pro Direct but even if it is saved there is always going to be a deep down suspicion of the English clubs now and their interests. I also think it has been attrocious timing by the premiership clubs due to the next RWC being held in England and also with the Lions tour looming. I would not like to be an English player on that tour if their union goes ahead with their treats. Maybe the Celtic unions pull out of that tour too and in doing so it will force Australia to sit down and tell England to grow up and cop on.
Posted 09:17 14th September 2012