Steve Walsh: Blamed for defeat
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England forwards coach Graham Rowntree is to seek "clarification" from the IRB regarding the performance of referee Steve Walsh in Saturday's 30-3 defeat by Wales.
Rowntree - a former international prop - was especially annoyed by the way in which Walsh controlled the breakdown and the scrum.
Wales dominated both areas as they surged to a record win over England that saw them retain the Six Nations title and deny their arch-rivals a Grand Slam at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.
England were repeatedly penalised at the scrum and Rowntree's mood is unlikely to be improved by reports suggesting Wales players later privately admitted they had collapsed the set-piece on six occasions.
And the Red Rose brigade also had complaints about the legality of the turnover that led to the first of two second-half tries for Wales' Alex Cuthbert -- an incident England head coach Stuart Lancaster labelled the "tipping point" of the match.
Rowntree indicated the way in which Walsh oversaw the title-decider was at variance with what the referee had told him during the pre-match meeting and he would now be seeking an explanation from Joel Jutge, the French former Test referee who is now the IRB's referees' chief.
"I sat up on Saturday night and watched the game again forensically," said Rowntree.
"I'm annoyed at a lot of the outcomes and I will be speaking to the IRB to get some clarification about it.
"With Joel Jutge now in charge of the IRB referees, he's very keen for an open forum and a very honest review process from the coaches and the referees.
"In most of the games I've submitted glowing reports on referees but on this occasion we were frustrated by a lot of the outcomes and I will be speaking to Joel to get some clarification (about the) breakdown and scrum.
"I spoke to Steve after the game. We both agreed that we would go away and have a look at the game again. Having watched it, I need clarification.
"A lot of those decisions were big, game momentum-changing decisions."
Some pundits criticised England for being insufficiently "streetwise" and not adapting quickly to Walsh's interpretations at the scrum where Wales props Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones had a field day.
However, Rowntree - who has repeatedly insisted he is not in the business of coaching any scrum 'tricks' - said: "I don't buy this whole 'streetwise' thing.
"We just want a clean outcome at the scrum, we don't practice anything different," he added.
There were widespread concerns voiced by England fans, if not team management, when they saw Walsh had been appointed to Saturday's key fixture because of his previous outings with England that included a touchline row with fitness coach Dave Redddin at the 2003 World Cup.
New Zealand-born Walsh, 40 was sacked by the New Zealand Rugby Union in 2009 following his drunken arrival at a refereeing conference.
But he moved to Sydney where, having rebuilt his life, he resumed full-time refereeing under the banner of the Australian Rugby Union in 2011, taking charge of England's 19-12 World Cup quarter-final defeat by France in Auckland in October that year.
Comments
7ton says...
APV1
Has Walsh actually been officially sanctioned by the IRB or is this just a bit of spin based on the opinion of the Independent Newspaper?
Posted 22:31 28th March 2013
APV1 says...
To quote The Independent newspaper:
"Steve Walsh, the controversial Australian official who frustrated England to within an inch of their lives during the Six Nations finale in Wales 11 days ago, is the heaviest faller in the latest round of refereeing appointments sanctioned by the International Rugby Board.
Walsh will not control any of the 30 Tests scheduled for early summer, although he has been awarded the opening British and Irish Lions tour match with the Barbarians in Hong Kong on 1 June."
Posted 11:55 28th March 2013
7ton says...
Spartacus
Agreed. There does seem to be different interpretations being applied in different games and at times even in the same game. Sadly players therefore can spend a good time of the game trying to adapt to a particular referees ways.
Coaches like Rowntree are certainly entitled to seek clarification not just to try and analyse what went wrong in that particular game but to be able to maybe adapt quicker in a future game.
Nobody can call these Guys whingers for simply doing that!
Posted 20:42 27th March 2013
Spartacus says...
not hollies- talking rubbish - recent nonsense- will dig out
Posted 13:09 27th March 2013
Spartacus says...
@7ton - Hopefully you will realise that the comments about SH whingers are a wind up. Obviously I can never prove this one way or another.
What is clear on this posting is that Rowntree, an honest man and hardly a whinger, has made a point about getting clarification on some of Walsh's reffing (as an aside I have generally liked the "Australian Walsh" as a ref but am concerned about ego after this game and recent Hollies incident).
Now, read back over the posts on this thread - there have been a lot of nasty and ill informed postings, from SH and Wales fans mostly, calling Rowntree a whinger, arrogant etc etc. I agree it should be kept to the rugby - but on this occasion I for once felt the need to leap to Englands defence because I think games would be better if refs were more consistent.
Posted 10:07 27th March 2013
7ton says...
Spartacus
C'mon you are getting quite petty and nit picking over points here.
Re "Statute of limitations" you know full well that my point was that you had the chance to respond to then. NOT NOW. Yet you say that my point was a whinge. You seem very good at accusing other people of whinging but denying you do so yourself.
Now I am away from home for a while so don't have a recording of that game to look at so can only go from memory and some uTube coverage- which does not show so much detail. But from that I think that the Bear hug bit is another of your exagerations and the referee was certainly not in the perfect position as he was round the other side of the ruck and some distance back. Now we both have our views on this and while it is good that we can discuss this without making silly insults towards each other we could go on forever and I think we both agree it is nothing to do with this article.
On to my main point which is that I just think you went way over the top with your suggestions over who are the biggest whingers.
As for this article I don't think the English are any worse or better at whnging than any other Nation
Graham Rowntree is like any coach quite entitled to seek clarification on certain matters
However that alone does not prove that Walsh was wrong or right
I do think that Walsh can be a bit egoistic but as for this game without watching the game again a few times I would not like to comment on his overall performance
What does annoy me is with not just this game but others is posters complaining about the ref who seem to have very little knowledge of the laws themselves and not backing their accusations up with some proper evidence.
Posted 23:11 26th March 2013
Spartacus says...
@7ton - "It's a bit late to come up with that now" - Sorry did not realise that there was a statute of limitations.
"Why did you not come up with that before" - maybe I had moved on to other postings when that one rolled off the PR page and forgot to go back specially to see whether you had posted. Hang on, if I did this, then surely it is outside of your statue of limitations to whinge about it?
"it is arguable that he had his feet trapped and he did not have much time to move" - I disagree - if this is the case then why would he be holding on to the Bok player in a bear hug rather than trying to free himself?
"In anycase it is not relevant as your complaint was against the referee and it was obvious that he was not in the right position to get a clear view of what McCaw was exactly doing so you can't blame him for not blowing" - Again I diasgree as the ref was in a perfect position to judge, and McCaw was evidently up to something on the side of that ruck!
And I dont get what any of this has to do with your original complaint - is it ok to discuss the performance of refs or not? I think it is as long as it is a discussion rather than abuse.
Posted 15:40 26th March 2013
7ton says...
Spartacus
Yeah right! It's a bit late to come up with that now. Why did you not come up with that before when you made the comment and asked to clarify it? Maybe you just saw all the responses that rubbished the offside and other allegations you decided that the only possible reason you could claim was McCaw sitting on his ass! But that to was debated and it is certainly not clear as it is arguable that he had his feet trapped and he did not have much time to move before Greyling came flying in. In anycase it is not relevant as your complaint was against the referee and it was obvious that he was not in the right position to get a clear view of what McCaw was exactly doing so you can't blame him for not blowing.
I still fail to see how you can justify the over the top claims about who are the biggest whingers
Posted 11:13 26th March 2013
Spartacus says...
@7ton - really?
Re: Greyling incident - McCaw entered ruck cleanly, he was cleaned out legally (just). McCaw then sat on his ass, still holding on to the bok player rather than moving away. At this point Greyling came in like a moron. McCaw should have been blown when he was sat on his ass. As I clearly said before, this does not excuse Greyling, but was part of wider conversation about ref inconsistency, which was deemed a whinge because it involved McCaw
Posted 09:35 26th March 2013
7ton says...
Spartacus
Your silly little bit of bi polar sarcasm means nothing and the reason for the 2 posts was that as the first hadn't appeared after the usual time period I thought I had not sent it properly so sent in another to make sure. Not too hard to work out is it?
As for you responding to a whinge about barnes it was just one little sentence from jmangod and your response was a rather angry way over the top exaggerated and innacurate bit of finger pointing. And you accuse me of being angry.
Yes we have engaged in discussions before. But the posts you have mentioned are .not the one I was referring to.
That was to do with the Greyling incident where you claimed the ref should have penalised McCaw and I requested you clarify your reasoning which you did not.
Posted 01:53 26th March 2013
Spartacus says...
@7ton - 2 posts, similar but different and very angry. Bi-polar?
"why bring up Aus and NZ" - because I was responding directly to a NZ whinge about Wayne Barnes
"Sure we have Whingers from NZ, Whingers from Aus and most certainly Whingers from South Africa. As to which of those happen to be the biggest bears no relevance to this article so why try to make something of it." Agreed, but again I was responding to someone whose response to a ref discussion was a tired reference to Pom whingers. But fair point - SA fans are no better, not that I was claiming otherwise, it just wasnt relevant to the particular discussion
"I can also recall a while back you having a whinge about McCaw and when you were invited to have a serious discussion and back up your accusations you failed to do so." Not true - I engaged in a discussion with you, but interestingly you call it a whinge i.e. anything that is pereceived to be anti-NZ is a whinge?
Spartacus who says " NZ have whinged more about Barnes, than the whole of England have whinged about anything since the beginning of time!" and "Add up all the whinges on this site, and I bet most of them come from NZ and Oz!"
"As for having a discussion I can remember you having a big whinge about the ref in a NZ/SA game a while ago and you were invited to back up your comments with a proper explanation and discussion but you did not respond. " - This is nonsense - it was a discussion about Bryce Lawrence in Oz/SA game, and again there was lots of discussion
You have not understood my posts, please calm down and re-read them!
Posted 21:45 24th March 2013
7ton says...
Spartacus who says " NZ have whinged more about Barnes, than the whole of England have whinged about anything since the beginning of time!" and "Add up all the whinges on this site, and I bet most of them come from NZ and Oz!"
Really!
We may get whingers from Aus and NZ but we certainly get them from SA as well don't we?? However whatever country has the greatest amount has nothing to do with this article
As for having a discussion I can remember you having a big whinge about the ref in a NZ/SA game a while ago and you were invited to back up your comments with a proper explanation and discussion but you did not respond.
Posted 10:53 23rd March 2013
7ton says...
Spartacus
Really? So if you want a serious discussion. Then why bring up Aus and NZ.
Sure we have Whingers from NZ, Whingers from Aus and most certainly Whingers from South Africa. As to which of those happen to be the biggest bears no relevance to this article so why try to make something of it.
I can also recall a while back you having a whinge about McCaw and when you were invited to have a serious discussion and back up your accusations you failed to do so.
Posted 22:13 22nd March 2013
Spartacus says...
@7ton - no that is clearly not the case - I am saying jmangod cant complain about whingers and then whinge about Barnes ".Either you want a discussion about ref standards or you dont" I am more than happy for a sensible discussion about refs. Apparently this is whingeing though, even if I am a Bok fan talking about the ref for Wales for England?!??!
Add up all the whinges on this site, and I bet most of them come from NZ and Oz!
Posted 11:46 22nd March 2013
7ton says...
TVaddict
Admirable idea about the charity donations but teams change over the year and whatever the results with whatever ref next year it will not prove a thing in regards to this game.
And if the two teams were to play in the near future I doubt that the result would be as you expect
Posted 02:13 22nd March 2013
Sirjona says...
In my opinion as a non biased Taffy I fail to see what England are to gain from making them look fools in public and allowing the whole rugby world to again tar them as whingeing, spoilt, arrogant etc. if the ref needs criticising it is for not yellow carding the donkey that is C Ashton for two counts of needless stamping or maybe Walshy was taking pity on them.
England get on with it or if you are going to complain do it behind closed doors to avoid making yourselves look prats.
Posted 20:25 21st March 2013
jontheref says...
As an aside to this, why did they appoint walsh when he had refereed the reverse fixture last yesr, England v Walws?
Also we had Jutge twice during the 6N, and have had Joubert 5 times in less than 12 months.
Can they not find someone to appoint neutral refs without repeating the same ref for one team repeatedly?
Posted 19:28 21st March 2013
jontheref says...
melkdave
Here you go again, spouting falsehoods.
Walsh was disciplined during the 2005 Lions for verbally abusing an Irish man, Shane Horgan.
He did chase the English kicking coach, after England had 16 players on the pitch during a RWC game.
Spluttering again about Adam Jones, did you even watch the game?
Give us your analysis, minute by minute, not these vague ascertions you make up.
Anyway, look on the bright side, your second favourite team won the championship!
Posted 19:02 21st March 2013
lawynd says...
@rugbylover - It's my understanding that the Italian authorities have submitted a dossier to Jutge on Clancy's performance presiding over the England game.
Posted 14:54 21st March 2013
trelawney says...
The only good post on this site was by Welshy, good on you sir.
Can any one tell me what a 'jackal-er' is?
Posted 14:41 21st March 2013