England head coach Stuart Lancaster has hinted that France-based players are unlikely to feature in his squad for the upcoming November Test series.
Steffon Armitage, who was voted the outstanding player in the Top 14 last season, and his brother Delon have started 2012/13 in impressive form.
But with his squad being named next Thursday, Lancaster reiterated his stance on selection but wouldn't formally shut the door on those abroad.
"What makes it difficult when a player plays in France is they are not available for our camps when we need them," he told BBC Radio Five Live.
"We have got a camp coming up at the end of this month (at St George's Park) and we have an agreement with the Premiership clubs to have access to the England players.
"It is not under the IRB release window so we can't get the lads who are in the French clubs.
"Toulon were in the French final the day we played South Africa in the first Test (in June) so it creates problems from that point of view.
"You would never say never but it is always going to be harder for players playing in France."
Forwards coach Graham Rowntree also stood by the showings of Chris Robshaw when questioned about what impact Steffon Armitage's absence might have at the breakdown.
"Over the summer tour Chris Robshaw stole more ball than any other seven playing in the summer, including New Zealand and Australia, but he is also a credible line-out threat and a ball-carrier," he said.
There have also been calls for in-form number eight Nick Easter to make a return to the squad, but the coaches believe he does not feature in England's long-term planning.
"Nick Easter is playing well," Rowntree said.
"We are well aware of his form but since this coaching crew came together, post the World Cup, we decided to look a bit younger, the likes of Ben Morgan, Thomas Waldrom, Phil Dowson have been playing eight for us.
"We are quite happy with their development because we have to look at the next World Cup.
"The door is not closed for Nick. He knows that. Age is not so much counting against him but the guys we have got there we are very happy with.
"If there is an injury, Nick knows he is one we will consider."
Comments
kybone says...
rugby_rockstar-'What can we do about it? vote with your feet. not impressed with the product? then make the hard decision and stay away from the turnstyles.'- They're already doing that in the Pro12!
'we all seem to be settling for rubbish compromises like not having Steffan in the team, just to keep accountants happy'- For Christs sake, it is nothing to do with money. You always say the same thing on every thread- 'Professionalism and money in the Prem and Top 14 are to blame for all of rugby's problems'. Stuart Lancaster said, when he first got the England job, that he would only pick players that wanted to play for England and would give their all. Stef Armitage, good a player as he is, has taken the money over England. He knew that the RFU's policy on French based players was changing after the 2011 World Cup, so that they would no longer be eligable for selection, and he still decided to go. If he has the required desire to represent England, he will come back. If he doesn't, then its probably better that we don't pick him anyway.
Posted 11:29 28th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
It's totally crap that club v country politics have prevented englands best openside from playing for england. this is the problem with professional rugby. we all seem to be settling for rubbish compromises like not having Steffan in the team, just to keep accountants happy. Toulon pay Steffan so they get to say when he's released to play test match rugby. Lancaster doesn't like not having control over his test players so he just won't pick him at all. Only thing is we, the fans, want to see the best england team possible and its us who are being screwed! the bottom line about professional rugby is the cash. as long as the club owner is making money then the club owner is happy. The sport. The fans. We don't matter. and we don't have a voice because our view points so scattered and parochial. The custodians of the sport aren't looking after it. I use the term battery hen rugby to discribe the aviva premiereship and Top 14. Yes it makes money, but the product isn't particularly great and the players are flogged to death or part of a 50 man pool where some of them hardly ever get a game (gethin jenkins). free range rugby is what we fans would like to see, rested players perform better. Professionalism stops that happening. turning rugby into a business mustn't be used as an excuse to hurt the sport. What can we do about it? vote with your feet. not impressed with the product? then make the hard decision and stay away from the turnstyles.
Posted 17:01 26th October 2012
kybone says...
'heart_of_oak-'lets take the training camp to Toulon'. Perhaps it was meant as a tongue in cheek remark but why the hell not ?
Just for the record- i'd love to see S Armitage in the squad, but are you seriously suggesting that the entire squad go to train Toulon to accommodate one player? He aint that godd! Can no-one remeber the club v country row between the rfu and premier rugby a few years ago? That was all down to how much access the England coach has to the players. Luckily they managed to come to a compromise. As things stand Toulon do not have to release Armitage until a couple of days before games. It may seem a bit petty but the policy is that if players cant take a full part in the training camps leading up to games, then they will not play in the games. When all said and done people have come on here and bemoned the disadvantage that we're at in comparison to Ireland in regards player access etc. and now those same people are on here suggesting that we pick a player whom we have no control over what so ever, and who can't even take part in training. Ive said it already but i'll say it again- if Armitage wants to play for England, and England want him, then they'll have to persuade him to come back and play in England. Then it won't even be an issue. He and England knew the score when he left.
Posted 21:15 25th October 2012
APV1 says...
Well now we know.
Posted 15:50 25th October 2012
heart_of_oak says...
kybone, Jamietheprop and others....
I understand what you're saying but I just feel that it's rediculous. Here we have a guy who is in the form of his life, the best player in France at the moment, an England international, lauded by his coach, by Wilko and just about everyone else..... and we can't pick him.
Jamietheprop - it's not that I feel sorry for Armitage - I feel frustrated for England. We're looking like fools, don't you think ? We've manufactured some vague and poorly understood criteria that prevent us from selecting one of the best 7s in the game.
A bit more flexibility and a bit of compromise is needed on this situation. Someone said in an earlier post 'lets take the training camp to Toulon'. Perhaps it was meant as a tongue in cheek remark but why the hell not ?
Posted 09:32 25th October 2012
kybone says...
heart_of_oak - I think the situation is that the RFU didn't really have a stance on foreign based players until now, basically because, until recent years, we didn't really have any. A couple of years ago it was made clear to all England players that by (unknown date) any player playing outside of England would not be considered for international selection, hence why the likes of Haskell and Palmer came back. Thats the stance that the RFU have taken and all the players know it. Personally i think its as much to do with keeping the best players over here without having to compete financially with the French clubs. But there you go.
APV1- Yea i understand your viewpoint, i really do. I just feel like we've been neither here nor there with our team selections in the past- handing international debuts to players at the age of 27, 28, 29 and as a result we've stagnated a bit and fallen behind from a position of world dominance. We have the talent, we have the depth, we just don't seem to have the kind of forward thinking that Oz and NZ seem to have. I have nothing against Easter. I just fear that if we pick him, and others of his age, we'll once again end up having to rush new blood into the side 12 months out from a world cup. Then after the Tournement the whole cycle of picking 'expirienced' players, in a vein attempt to preserve a ranking position, will be repeated. At some stage we need to say 'thanks but we're moving on'
Posted 20:09 24th October 2012
kybone says...
heart_of_oak - I think the situation is that the RFU didn't really have a stance on foreign based players until now, basically because, until recent years, we didn't really have any. A couple of years ago it was made clear to all England players that by (unknown date) any player playing outside of England would not be considered for international selection, hence why the likes of Haskell and Palmer came back. Thats the stance that the RFU have taken and all the players know it. Personally i think its as much to do with keeping the best players over here without having to compete financially with the French clubs. But there you go.
APV1- Yea i understand your viewpoint, i really do. I just feel like we've been neither here nor there with our team selections in the past- handing international debuts to players at the age of 27, 28, 29 and as a result we've stagnated a bit and fallen behind from a position of world dominance. We have the talent, we have the depth, we just don't seem to have the kind of forward thinking that Oz and NZ seem to have. I have nothing against Easter. I just fear that if we pick him, and others of his age, we'll once again end up having to rush new blood into the side 12 months out from a world cup. Then after the Tournement the whole cycle of picking 'expirienced' players, in a vein attempt to preserve a ranking position, will be repeated. At some stage we need to say 'thanks but we're moving on'
Posted 20:05 24th October 2012
APV1 says...
@ kybone - all good points. I guess we're both waiting for tomorrow's announcement, eh?
Posted 11:03 24th October 2012
heart_of_oak says...
kybone/APV1 - the debate over Easter could go on for some time with some saying it's more important to preserve our RWC ranking and others saying it's more important to bring on younger players. Both views seem to have alot of merit.
The situation I'm personally more interested in is the Steffon Armitage position being adopted by SL. Why was it ok to pick Tom Palmer (and I think James Haskell as well come to that) when he was based in France but it's not ok to pick Armitage now. I do not believe the criteria has changed. And is it really impossible for Armitage to get to every training camp in the UK ? A flight from France to the UK takes a couple of hours - less than a train ride from Newcastle to London.
I've heard people going on about calls and moves and such like. Are we really saying that there's no way Armitage could be instructed in the calls and moves designed in training ?
Surely there must be some way we can use one of the best 7s in world rugby right now. Not to do so, saying it's because the guy is in France, sounds like a very poor excuse to me.
Someone said in another post that we should stop bleating about this and accept it. Sorry, but no, I don't and I intend to bleat on about it again.
Posted 10:55 24th October 2012
kybone says...
APV1- It was the 'That's why I'd select the in-form players now and use the recent 6N and SA Tour and future 6N and tours for development.' comment that i found puzzling tbh. SL has spent his tenure trying to bring fresh faces to the England squad in good time for them to develope by 2015, and it's been reasonably successful. The future actually looks very bright for the first time in about a decade. Your point suggested that having done what he has so far, SL should abandon this policy for the duration of the November tests, then revert back to it for the 6N. I repeat my previous comment that this is entirely the wrong message to send out to the players whom he has built the team around, and who he will have , im sure, gotten on board with his vision through to 2015. I agree about S Armitage, he is the best at the moment, but Easter, despite his form, is past it at international level. He hasn't played for England in over a year so to bring him back at the age of 34 when we're pretty sure he won't make it to 2015, seems pretty negative to me. Look at the NZ, the most successful team in the world. What do they do? Do they call back all the veterans and overseas based players when they have an important game? Or do they trust the young up and coming players to take on the mantle of the previous incumbant. If we actually showed more faith in our young talent, instead of always thinking that we'll never manage without certain players, we might actually get somewhere. Its sticking with the tried and trusted for too long that has created the majority of Englands problems since 2003. There have been too many instances where the younger generation have been almost as old as the players that they're replacing by the time they get their oportunity. Hence why we never seem to move forward.
Posted 20:41 23rd October 2012
APV1 says...
@ kybone - I don't think it's a matter of trust, it's a matter of form. Age shouldn't be an issue. He should be picking the in-form players, regardless of age. And if the youngsters aren't the in-form players, well it's up to them to improve.
Just as I didn't like Cocker's suggestion that England play Flood into form, I think it's the coach's job to pick the best player now, not who might be the best player later. Especially when there's so much riding on the results.
I mentioned that I appreciate the training camps are an issue, but shouldn't be the only factor considered. But I'd expect a professional to pick up calls and moves quite easily - many are variations on a theme, anyway. Tom Palmer managed, so why not Armitage?
And these internationals ARE different, as they affect our RWC Pool. All internationals are important, but some are more important than others. I don't think these internationals should be about development over results. I have been an advocate of this, but we need to make an exception now to keep our top 4 place.
So we've got an English 7 who is in the form of his life. Almost always mentioned by PR in their XV of the week - again this week - and even JW is saying he should be considered. But because he plays overseas, he's not considered.
Personally I think that, "He's the best 7 we've got at the moment and we want to win." counts as a good enough "exceptional circumstance" to me.
Posted 17:14 22nd October 2012
kybone says...
APV1-'That's why I'd select the in-form players now and use the recent 6N and SA Tour and future 6N and tours for development.' So then SL is basically saying to the younger players-'I don't trust you to do the job. So im gonna bring the old guard back and i'll use you when theres not as much riding on it'. Bad message to send out to the players that he'll be relying on in years to come. Also the non-selection of French based players is nothing to do with how far away they are. The French clubs are not obliged to release them for training, only for the match itself. I don't know about you but when i played i was always told that if i didn't come to training i wouldn't play. The reason being that i wouldn't have known any of the calls or the set moves etc. Look, we already moan about the percieved disadvantage we are at in comparison to the likes of Ireland due to their ability to do whatever they like with the players whenever they want, and you're suggesting that we pick players that will only be allowed to join up with the squad a matter of days before the games. It puts us at a further disadvantage. As JamieTheProp has already said- if playing for England means anything to S.Armitage he will come back to the Prem.
Posted 12:36 22nd October 2012
APV1 says...
London to Toulon is about 800 miles.
Sydney to Perth is about 2500 miles.
Remind me why we can't pick players based in France..? The training camps are a good point, but that can't be the be-all and end-all, surely?!
Anyone remember a chap called Tom Palmer? He seemed to squeeze in to the EPS "because he went there before the rules were set". So excpetions can be made for exceptional circumstances. How's this for an exceptional circumstance?
He's the best 7 we've got at the moment.
It's nonsense to make the squad suffer over this sort of thing. It's not like SL et al can get to every AP, HC, Amlin and LV= game anyway. So they must decide to watch some of them on the TV or get the match reports from trusted colleagues.
I wonder why some of these chaps went there in the first place. I know there's the financial aspect, which I'm sure was a massive draw. But was there something in the England set-up which gave them a little impetus as well? No idea, just food for thought.
@ heathy - I absolutely agree with you. But I must say the the Autumn Internationals have slightly more bearing than most. They will directly affect our Pool for the RWC 2015. If we're still 4th (or above, although I don't think that's possible) in the IRB Table, we don't have any of the other top 3 in our pool. I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't be tough regardless, but I'd rather wait for the likes of NZ until a bit later in the comp, or miss them altogether...
That's why I'd select the in-form players now and use the recent 6N and SA Tour and future 6N and tours for development.
Posted 10:48 19th October 2012
trrstannard says...
Steffon is an out an out seven stealing/securing ball. Excellent engine, tough, and carries incredible well also. World Class potential. In the Brussouw (pre knee injury) Pocock, McCaw league. Englands replacement for Neal back. Many yrs ahead of him also. Got to make an allowance for this guy surely. Delon, no chance, not an international player, an ill discipline/arrogant temperament.
Posted 18:31 18th October 2012
NHsaints says...
The problem is all the good, solid, multiskilled 8's in England's repatoire at the moment are aged...too aged in fact. Dowson is the only one at the moment who I feel could break the trend but he's not exactly performed at international level and I feel he would be better utilised from the bench as cover for all backrow positions. Our other options are to put faith in a tried and tested player like Haskell and hope that he develops his game or just provides us with the solidity to bring through a new star at 8. I reckon though the best option is to convert another backrow player with the skills required: Steffon Armitage. That then leaves room for Robshaw at 7 and Wood and Croft to fight out for the 6 jersey.
Posted 16:21 18th October 2012
ArmchairGeneral says...
@heathy. Solid. My only addition is that sometimes the old boys develop the young ones faster. I'd like Sherridan and Easter in for November and then over to Morgan and co. it's not doubting Lancaster as it is possible he will select Easter. Less so Sherrie but he could. However a good point well made. It's a good plan Lancaster has.
Posted 14:27 18th October 2012
heathy says...
As an England coach, you cannot win. Pick the likes of Easter and you are picking Dads Army, pick the young ones and he is not picking the 'best'. Listen folks, it has been made perfectly clear what SL and the team are doing. England are re-building and need the good young players to be playing for England regularly. It is then and ONLY then that they will become better players and used to what is needed. England are hosting the World Cup in 2015 and it is this point that we need to work towards. Easter will not be around then or will certainly be too old. So, even though he is on form (ATM!!!), it is unlikely he will feature so why waste valuable experience time that a good potential can have? Sometimes it is a step back to take two forward. The England team that won the World Cup in 2003 had been together for a good 6/7 years all in all. It took that long to get it right. We need to trust in SL and support what he is trying to do. The Armitgage brothers have had their opportunities. Steffon just didn't cut it when he played and although his form is good, it was also good back then and it didn't work. He chose to go to France KNOWING how this could affect things and let's be honest, we have others that are more than capable in his position. Delon is a bit of a loose cannon disciplinary wise and his form also blows hot and cold. He, more than anyone, new the craic by going to France. Players can not have it both ways and at this stage of developing the national team, the camps England hold are crucial. It is a shame for Easter and the two Armitage's I know but they have had their chances AND England have players that they can develop in those positions playing well and will be, with a run of games, better when the World Cup comes around. We need to look at the bigger picture and actually trust in a coach that clearly has a plan.
Posted 11:50 18th October 2012
JamieTheProp says...
How can anyone feel sorry for Armitage? He knew what the rules were when he signed to go to France and decided to take the money avaialable there over fighting for an England place here. I don't blame him but don't feel sorry for him!
He'll come back a better player for his experience and with a higher profile (assuming he wants to play for England) and then we'll know he is committed to playing for his country. If not he will stay in France and we'll know that England wasn't a priority for him - and in which case I would rather have players for whom it is!
Posted 11:28 18th October 2012
ArmchairGeneral says...
Take the training camp to Toulon!! You get Sherrie, Stefan and possibly Delon. And Jonnie to kick coach for the camp.
Posted 10:44 18th October 2012
melkdave says...
Well you cant argue with SLs logic,about players not available for training camps .But it is frustrating as we fans know S.Armitage is atm the best openside in the NH,and what a potential backrow of 6 Robshaw,7 S.Armitage ,8 B.Morgon,we could have all powerful ball cariers ,tacklers ,and at the breakdown and still keeping the extra lineout option,with very good replacments if needed because of injury lSame goes for D.Armitage ,but we are blessed with qyite a few very good FBs 5 atm.Hopefully we will see further inprovement from England in the aurtum,as so far ive been very happy with that aspect of SLsand co's management,that every campaign we are inproving.Warrem Gatland though hasnt got training camps to think of ,so i wouldnt rule out seeing the Armitages in a Lions squad just yet.
Posted 09:54 18th October 2012