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Comments
curates_egg says...
Banned for 8 weeks. Astonishing. The entry level is 12 weeks, so how a player with past history can get a lower sanction - after being found guilty - is beyond me.
Posted 15:57 27th March 2012
APV1 says...
@ curates_egg - I think you need to have another look at the video. Hartley had fingers and a hand on his face, just before he bit. I've stated previously that this does not excuse his behaviour, but you're a little one-sided on this.
Posted 16:23 22nd March 2012
rollingdoughnut says...
curatesegg
- conceded, in these circumstances Hartley is far from innocent, but that doesn't make my post redundant. I already said it wasn't definitive, and you'll note he didn't take the finger in beyond the knuckle, as I predicted. As for your definition of a lunge, that shows a deep bias. I'm also not convinced the other player (I didn't bother to note what team or nationality he was, so I've no axe to grind - it might have been my team!) is entirely innocent either - having your fingers all over somebody's face is very close to a gouging situation.
Posted 12:18 22nd March 2012
curates_egg says...
@rollingdoughnut look at the vid I posted of Hartley biting Richardt Strauss' finger last year. It was just one finger, it was not in his mouth, Hartley made a lunge and bit the finger. In short, it renders your post completely redundant.
Posted 10:59 22nd March 2012
APV1 says...
@ heart_of_oak - the posts were not meant to do anything, other than show a couple of examples when biting has occured. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions...
And I think that you really need to be thinking in more current terms about Peter and his current flame - Jamelah Asmar.
(Yes, I have just had to look that up!)
Posted 10:44 22nd March 2012
heart_of_oak says...
APV1, I looked at those videos you posted but they don't really show definitively who is to blame for an incident. In the Hartley video, he seems to grab an opposition player around the neck which looks dangerous to me. He then complains to the ref that he's been bitten but it looks as if the other player could have suffered damage to the throat if he hadn't done something. In the second video I struggle to see anything at all. So I really don't know what to make of your videos.
But as regards this incident with Hartley and Ferris, I've looked at a few videos people have posted and I also cannot see much in these either. Perhaps, as some people have said, the citing committee will have access to footage we have not seen. But if not, then I cannot see Hartley being found guilty.
Whether Ferris put his hand in Hartley's mouth or whether Hartley's reputation is that of a dirty player or not, shouldn't be the issue. The question the citing committee should ask themselves is whether the evidence they have conclusively show that Hartley deliberately bit Ferris in this particular 6 Nations game and if so, were there any mitigating circumstances such as self protection.
If they have evidence that we are not privvy to and if it does provide proof of an illegal act by Hartley, then I would like to see Hartley banned for as long as the law allows. If there's no such proof, then he cannot be found guilty.
And now can we please get back to the deeply meaningful subject of Peter Andre and Jordan ?
Posted 16:16 21st March 2012
ChrisInCrete says...
@craigsman "we should trust the citing process and accept the decision"
Yes, we should, but there have been so many problems.......and inconsistencies.
Someone posted asking why wasn't Ferris cited for fingers in the mouth - well there was never going to be a fuss about that, because if someone bit Ferris' finger after it went in his mouth and admitted it on the pitch he would have been sent straight off. Getting to the bottom of whether a finger went in the accused mouth could only be done by the finger waggler and I somehow don't think that's going to come out.
The citing had to happen, there was an accusation and the ref took note.
The cited person was the one in the contact area when the bite was assumed to have happened.
Note Well: the video however proves nothing (no finger shown), there is only very strong assumption - which may be enough.
Make the players wear gumshields on top and bottom deck. End of problem.
Posted 15:30 21st March 2012
rollingdoughnut says...
I reckon the forensic evidence should clear this up. Biting a finger intentionally and biting a finger that's in your mouth would give different results:
Intentionally:
1. It's likely to be more than one finger - people don't normally hold their fingers apart so obligingly.
2. It will include either the little finger or the index finger.
3. It's highly likely to be at an angle.
4. It will be on or above the knuckle - you wouldn't intentionally take more into your mouth, that's asking to gag.
5. It will be on the top and bottom only - the sides aren't accessible.
Already in your mouth:
1. One finger only.
2. Can be any finger.
3. More likely to appear straight.
4. Very possibly below the knuckle - the perpetrator isn't bothered if you gag.
5. It could also be on the sides.
These aren't definitive in either case, but they're very good clues. Let's see the finger.
Whoever started it should be hammered. But if Ferris was the initial cause, both he and Rory Best should receive another, separate punishment for trying to get the red card. That's just like diving in the box, and I think whatever side of the argument anybody's on, we'd all agree we don't want that football ordure in our game
Posted 11:40 21st March 2012
APV1 says...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-17455257
Puts everything into perspective.
@ RuckingKiwi - I think there are some AB hookers with dodgy histories too (although all credit to KM for not knocking that supporter into next week). It's a bit of the pot calling the kettle All Black, isn't it?
@ justice_4_all - thanks for the pog post - gave me a wry smile. With regards to Hartley biting PW, DH was certainly in need of something, but biting just seems so ferral.
@ sandal - I agree that the real shame is the rubbish system we have. Now there are white cards being trialled and off-pitch yellows. I'm still a little confused and not sure whether they're actually working. Time will tell. But the mockery of a system we have let Gougerie off (just a clear example, not the only case), when he should have, at least, been investigated.
@ jamesliveinhope - thank you for that clip. I love the broad grin on "Charlie's" face after he's "nipped" the other lad.
"Nipped"? Pathetic. A gerbil nips.
@ irishfan - thanks. I admit to only scanning the details, so appreciate the clarification.
Posted 10:32 21st March 2012
irishfan says...
@AVP1. just so you know ferris was not cleared of a dump tackle. the board just decided that his punishment (yellow card) was enough and no further action need be taken.
i still maintain that he wouldnt have been cited without evidance and they clearly have more camera angles to look at than we have seen
Posted 09:13 21st March 2012
jamesliveinhope says...
@bothhands - and there sits the problem. If Hartley bites its borderline cannibalism, if Wannenburg bites its a "nip".
Contrast the two referees in those incidents, who do you think managed the situation better? Poite's attitude was just missing the "man up FFS", Owens' reaction is one which has led to the fuss being made now.
As an aside, I understand that the IRB has created a reconstruction of the incident to be admitted as evidence. Recently leaked to the media (names changed to protect the innocent) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he5fpsmH_2g
Posted 08:52 21st March 2012
rico says...
this guy is just a dirty and weak man/hooker - always will be, gouging and biting now in his repetoire what a nice guy - you've got to be tough and maybe a little crazy to hook but there's no need for anything like this on the rugby field from grassroots to international. man up hartley or stop playing rugby if you are going to respond to a bit of rough contact by biting/gouging....
Posted 06:00 21st March 2012
sandal says...
@NHsaints
You say: ""Why Hartley?! WHY?! He's a perfectly good player without all the dirty play, has he not realised there are cameras everywhere watching him? They see everything he does and still he ignores this and carries on like he'll get away with it.""
The problem, NHsaints, is that Hartley and others like him have got away with it.
We have all seen, thanks to the "cameras everywhere", incontestible evidence on TV of three players -- Hartley, Powell and Rougerie -- assaulting Richie McCaw's head in the past 18 months or so. Two of them did so in clear view of the referee. Yet none of these players was penalised, or even cited. And of course there are many instances involving other players.
Rugby's judicial system cannot be trusted to make players answer for their misdeeds. Neither can it be trusted to make people in that system answer for theirs. Clearly, the system is tainted with collusion and parochialism.
Until we are sure that dirty players -- and dirty officials -- will be made to pay, we can be damned sure that there will be dirty play and dirty officiating.
But in this instance, did Hartley do wrong? Unlike almost everyone else here, I don't know. I didn't see the incident.
Posted 02:39 21st March 2012
JamieTheProp says...
I think at the same time the Irish front row should be cited for dangerous scrummaging - being that appalling can only cause injuries!
Posted 00:44 21st March 2012
quietbrit says...
If he is guilty he should be banned for a very long time. I can see (very strange) circumstances where this could have been an accident but IMO this has the smell of foul play - hopefully clear evidence will emerge to either damn or exonerate Hartley.
I also hope that footage emerges which dispels the speculation that Ferris was in any way 'deserving' - he is from all I have seen a clean player who plays very very hard within the rules.
Even if there isn't enough evidence to convict Hartley should face team sanctions - this really will be the Lancasters (or Mallets) defining moment...
Rather ruins what was otherwise an encouraging game from Eng.
Posted 23:39 20th March 2012
craigsman says...
APV1: Hilarious referencing!
I just like the way that, if England do well, Hartley isn't 'English', but if there is suspicion of foul play, Hartley is dirty, England are arrogant, supporters should feel ashamed, they only won because the ref had a bad day, they don't play 'attractive' rugby etc etc etc.
Hartley isn't perfect by a long shot, but we should trust the citing process and accept the decision. Otherwise we are just accepting the story of a player is maybe more popular over another.
Posted 23:24 20th March 2012
KiwiJoe says...
Trying to pull another players teeth out?? Man up Ferris, your team lost badly, so stop trying to make this into something it isn,t.
More hard work and less gob please, You,ve got the All Blacks later in the year, if you are up for it that is...
Posted 21:41 20th March 2012
KiwiJoe says...
Trying to pull another players teeth out?? Man up Ferris, your team lost badly, so stop trying to make this into something it isn,t.
More hard work and less gob please, You,ve got the All Blacks later in the year, if you are up for it that is...
Posted 21:20 20th March 2012
Hermes says...
APV1
Follow the posts. It has been argued that they can't cite/ban him based on the sky footage. I simply argue that they wouldn't cite him unless they are sure they have the footage to answer a case. If they cite him review the footage and don't uphold the citing we will all accept that.
Posted 19:36 20th March 2012
pontysurrey says...
Jediboy - no, supporting our team comes first but taking the mickey out of the English team is a close second. But thank you for your concern about our sorry existence. No need to worry though.
Posted 18:41 20th March 2012