London Welsh

APV1 says...

rugby_rockstar - if, as you suggest, "...regionlism is the most sucessful blueprint for domestic rugby in the entire world...", why are the AP and T14 the most financially successful and stable in the world? None of the other domestic competitions are as successful as those two. Which sort of shows what lawynd was suggesting - that you live inside out with your head somewhere dark and smelly.

And your nonsense about the AP's mediocre teams and "water-treaders" just goes to support this too. In a league of 12 teams, particularly one which faces promotion and relegation each season, there will be teams which come 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on, all the way to 12th.

Your glowing teams - Quins and Chiefs - have both been promoted from the Championship and are doing brilliantly.

There are always going to be 3 general sets in a 12-team league - the top few who are battling for silverware, the middle who are having a scrap for an HC place, and the bottom who are fighting against the possibility of relegation. And there will be, naturally, some overlaps. But to suggest that Bath, Worcester, Sale and Wasps are nothing but "...water treaders..." "...who quite frankly and go jump for the use they are to England." shows a complete lack of understanding of the game, the AP and massive disrespect to those players who put their bodies on the line each week. To suggest that they offer nothing to England (and I take it that you mean to the EPS and Saxons), just highlights your ignorance.

I'm not going to get in a debate with you, as my four year old son is offering a greater intellectual challenge and there's no point.

I would like for you to really simply and clearly, lay out exactly how you would set up a Regional Competition. I've read your posts and there's a lot of detail missing. Try starting something like this:

X number of regions, based in these areas... and go from there.

Posted 11:37 28th August 2012

lawynd says...

I'm not going to respond to all of that, because you're frankly talking out of your backside, although I'm absolutely positive that you'll see this as you having 'won'. You've completely missed most of my points, have wilfully twisted or misconstrued the others, and still haven't answered most of my questions!

I'll leave you with this to ponder - if you bring in regions and effectively subduct the existing clubs, who is going to bother developing players and managing academies when their best players will simply be swallowed up by a regional entity? More importantly, how is your pie-in-the-sky idea going to change the youth system and ensure that more youngsters are given the correct training and skill-set, rather than just turned into gym monkeys?

Posted 13:29 24th August 2012

rugby_rockstar says...

Lawynd,

Your question was, "So, I'll ask again, polite-like; how would you organise a regional system in England?"

See My answer in paragraphs 2 and 3, but you know that becasue you then reply to paragraph three... so basically your first paragraph is drivel. Can you read or is your mum reading this to you?

Love how you don't want to mention the euro boycott. It does prove what a bunch of self-serving incompetent idiots they are so I can see why you are running for cover on that point.

Jeez, see paragraph 3 (again).

Wahey! something tangible! They will play in the Pro 12, (if they'd have us, they certainly won't invite the current clubs in) I've thought a british (and italian since they beat PRL to the punch) league would improve the standard of the english game for years now as well as give england stars more exposure to celtic refs. We could also then desolve the pointless anglo-welsh cup.

The current aviva league will be untouched, the RFU will create a new level above it and players with england aspirations will sign for the regions over the next 4 year period when enough players have signed you add the 4 teams to the pro 12 this potentially gives us 4 years to impliment the transition, but the decision to cut the PRL clubs loose happens early on and once started there will be no going back. The beauty of this is you dont have to negiociate with the clubs like the WRU had to. and if they go to court about it, then the RFU have a very strong case to say that the PRL clubs were not performing. You got, sub standard rugby. You got them serving notice to walk away from the best quality domestic competitiion in the northern hemisphere, you got blood gate. The reasons for bringing in a new elite level are compelling and reasonable, if you don't deliver a service then the customer has a right to look elsewhere.

Posted 10:12 24th August 2012

rugby_rockstar says...

Lawynd,

I'm scared, asking how I'd structure the regions! Before I get to that, I bet you are feeling pretty stupid given the news today that PRL are boycotting the best quality domestic competition in Europe. Yeah they are really pulling their weight, aren't they. How stupid and self centred are these people? Well that's their public relations in tatters. Bringing in regions will be even easier now they've upset every euro-cup fan in England.

A starting point is that we have plenty of models to copy and plenty of examples of how not to do it from Celtic Warriors and the Australian set up who have too many francises. Past lessons can be learnt from.

I'd start with four francises based in rugby hot beds. Possibly giving the chance to Div 1 clubs to evolve and grow into the domestic power houses. I wouldn't try for too many francises too soon, but the quality of the teams will be very strong and sell themselves to any rugby fan. I'd bring in someone from NZ to steer the transition. Its all about implimenting a sucessful model. German and Japanese car manufacturers do it all over the world all the time.

Now as for your non-effort of a response, dismissing improvement at club level as polishing a turd is the biggest own goal I've ever heard in my life! How can you not even try to improve things!?! Like I said before all you are intersted in is your cozy elitist lifestyle. That's no way to run any organisation let alone a competative sport.

The current system is appauling. We have a proven sucessful model used all over the world, compared to 12 individual clubs who can't develop talent or compete with their european opponents. And they want to boycott the best competition in the NH. You've got no chance of winning this discussion with your clubs doing their best lemming impressions in the news pages every morning. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Posted 16:12 23rd August 2012

sirtidychris says...

I totally agree that the England national team is the most important aspect however we can't comprimise on the proud tradition of our separate rugby clubs and form a regional enterprise similar to the Welsh system ( as a bath fan i could never comprehend being pooled with my SW rivals !!!!).

We are lucky in England that we a large player base supported predominatley by the private school system and a broad fan base, whereas Wales have a smaller population and player base and therefore the regional set up makes sense to pool their talent. England have dipped in recent years in the european cup partly because of the Top 14, 7million salary cap taking the best SH stars and the top native players are spread more thinly across the our 12 teams incomparison to Wales and Irleand.

I do not think a knee jerk reaction is required however with squads starting to invest more in youth and the change in england selection policy seeing the return of players like cips, haskell, palmer and only fringe players like the armitage boys going abroad to chase big bucks. In the mean time the Top 14 is running an unsustainble system with clubs running huge debt and the welsh are having a genuine problem hanging onto thier stars.

This year will be one of the most close run and competitive AP's in memory with clubs bursting with young english qualified talent, and on the national scene we have a coach who actually picks on form/talent and has everyone behind him. Everything is cyclical, england dominated, the european cups and now we have fallen behind, but all the AP teams want to be their and want to win and are making all the right moves....just wait people...just wait

Posted 23:23 22nd August 2012

lawynd says...

@rugby_rockstar - you keep spouting jumbled rhetoric, but exactly how would you turn English rugby into a regional model? You'd dissuade fans from attending games, just for a start. Regions condense the geographic locations down even further, leaving many fans with divided loyalties and greater distances to travel for games. It would also disrupt the existing scouting and county network, with boundaries needing to be redrawn to ensure each region can draw a fair share of players. Furthermore, there aren't 12 towns or cities with AP teams you idiot, Harlequins and Saracens are both now back in London. That would also confound matters; five of the twelve teams are based in a very confined geographic location - how would they proceed? How would you divide them all up? Where would the existing clubs fit, into the Championship? What about those clubs in the next tier?

As per usual, you're all mouth and no trousers.

Posted 16:16 22nd August 2012

Chancer says...

If Andrew has anything to do with it, don't expect anything other than protecting vested interest

Posted 09:42 22nd August 2012

Bones7 says...

Top side goes up, bottom side goes down. Obviously that wouldn't stretch past the first couple of gin and tonics, never mind the port and cheese.

Posted 22:38 21st August 2012