A different world: Rugby in Lithuania
This week we will mostly be concerning ourselves with competition integrity, the validity of records and a cheap shot from the onlookers...
So how's this: having battled and slogged your way through a season in which you had your top-flight status unceremoniously and unfairly taken away from you, with players considering their options, the best heading off on loan or off full stop and the bean-counters sniffing around the corporate accounts, you manage to scrap your way through to the national cup semi-final, twice beating one particular team on the way.
You are up against this particular team in the semi-final and approach it with understandable confidence but then realise that the team you are up against has changed since the last time you faced it. Gone are some of promising youngsters/grizzled veterans/journeymen (delete as applicable) and in their place are some - admittedly somewhat battle-weary but still - world-class players of global renown.
It's a different playing field now and one on which, despite your very best efforts, you lose on. Would you not be just a little bit miffed at the way the field suddenly got skewed though?
It's the scenario that faced the Lions this weekend past in the Currie Cup, one that faces at least one team every year in that competition these days.
SARU needs, in this coming off-season, to have a long, hard think about its internal structures. Heyneke Meyer has not gone ahead and said it publicly but it's no secret he is desperate to get his international players centrally contracted and into a system whereby their workload can be better managed.
Meanwhile the big provinces in SA continue to master the art of scraping their way through enough of the Currie Cup safe in the knowledge that a phalanx of Springboks will return to the fray just in time to ensure the old order is maintained. The ridiculous new truncated format - where it is feasible you could lose more than half of your games and still make a semi-final - simply facilitates the internal ring-fencing.
It - and the absence of a salary cap - makes for dishonest competition, one in which the final showpieces will be watched by big local crowds, but one in which the general level of enthusiasm from outside has been pretty meagre, bar the faithful hard core.
Surely it cannot escape the wit of those in charge that central contracts would create both a fresher Springbok team and a Currie Cup where competitive integrity would be paramount. It's so important.
So it turns out that New Zealand didn't make it. But if they had, would they be the holders of the new record for most Test victories or would it simply be an extension of their existing record?
It was an interesting - at times colourful - debate that raged for a good half-hour with a colleague this week: is the current record of 18 consecutive Test victories held by Lithuania the valid record or is the record of 17, jointly held by South Africa and New Zealand, the real record because of the calibre of the teams they had to beat along the way?
Lithuania beat several teams ranked above them at the time. When they started their run they were ranked 73rd in the world, but by the time they finished four years later they were 37th and were regularly beating teams a good 20 spots down the list. Some of the games - including the triumphant 77-5 battering of Serbia to set the record - were simply statistical mismatches from start to finish.
Meanwhile, both All Blacks and Springboks were, of course, regularly playing and replaying their peers, often under heavy pressure. During their run, South Africa only once played a team ranked outside the world's top ten. The All Blacks' run included a Lions tour.
Yet you also have to consider they had the luxury of picking their best available teams every time, with every need catered for. The Lithuanians, hardly among the world's rich, were sent off to places as diverse as Serbia, Armenia and Norway, often at huge personal sacrifice from the players, often staying in meagre accommodation and playing on distinctly average playing pitches. Moreover, they had to keep that run going for four long years, with huge pauses in between matches and training schedules.
Different worlds. Comparable records? The argument never really reached a satisfactory conclusion. Over to you...
Finally - and to give you a good laugh - this little gem emerged from the popular press in the UK this week.
Sam Allardyce, for those not in the know, is a soccer manager who has rarely been shy of a histrionic tantrum or a level of expenditure on single players totalling more than the Premiership's season-long salary cap.
He seems to feel that we egg-chasers have an axe to grind over soccer players.... that we are jealous of the soccer life, that we....
It's too sumptuous for words really. Have a read here and we welcome your thoughts below...
Loose Pass compiled by Richard Anderson
Comments
Waz4before says...
@ Rosbif - it sounds like we may be more iin step than. Thought then, just as a good second row should be;-)
A strong European product is essential for everyone - which must include plans to grow the game outside the six nation countries which so far only the Anglo-French proposal does with 2 competitions proposed below the HC. I think England have a better track record in developing the game outside of the traditional markets than their Celtic counterparts which I believe is further evidenced in the Celtc leagues latest ludicrous proposal for a revised HC format that kills the Challenge cup and would leave several english/french/celtic sides without ANY competitive games for about 8 weeks in a season. Stupidity!
I think we are in agreement that real strength must come from beyond the Anglo-French axis and the growth in Irish club rugby has been a bonus and added real spice to the HC, the argument for me seems not to be "how" this should be done but actually "if" this should be done as I feel the Celtic nations fear growth outside of the current six nations! I believe a compromise can be agreed providing the Celtic nations drop their singular focus on "what's in it for us/what's best for us" and look at truly developing the European club game which, if successful, must lead to automatic promotion/relegation from the 6 Nations as well. In the spirit of compromise Anglo-French negotiations must ensure they dont try and shaft the Celtic nations in the process!
Posted 01:03 28th October 2012
Rosbif says...
Waz4before (great name by the way, I used to play 5, so we would have been brothers in arms mon ami).
I'm afraid in my desire for peace, I jumped on kybone's earlier post and thought he was Irish. Hence, I thought it was really quite impressive that he had put his own point of view to on side, and seen it from the Anglo-French view. Turns out he's English, which is a simpler explanation, but which then makes my earlier post look a little foolish. I was straining to try to make an argument that I am not familiar with. I was trying to see it from the Irish point of view! I have of course failed... And look foolish. But my motives were honourable!!
I find myself agreeing with your points (because, in no small part, they are my own views).
I guess I am more of a capitalist than a socialist. You help the other nations by having a strong product. That attracts interest from fans, TV, advertisers, sponsors, etc. So in business-speak, focus on the quality of the product first, revenues should follow. Then "equitable/moral/utopian re-distribution" of that revenue can be debated a distant 3rd. That's not business though. That's politics. So the debate goes on ad nauseam, so it appears..... but then politics was ever thus....
Peace :-)
P.S. did you jump at 2 or 4 in the lineouts?
Posted 20:41 27th October 2012
Waz4before says...
@ Rosbif - all this rubbish about England not wanting to develop the game in other countries is just rubbish; a decade of supporting the Churchill Cup in North America proves otherwise. When did Ireland, Wales or Scotland last support anyone other than themselves? I know it's hard to believe but a lot of people believe the HC is devalued by allowing the bottom 3 sides from any league to qualify and in fact is damaging the game in those countries, not helping - it's fairly simple, a competitive domestic competition may actually boost Pro12 which, outside of Ireland, is hardly booming!!!
Posted 13:15 27th October 2012
Rosbif says...
Fair play kybone. Sorry for the case of mistaken identity!
Posted 09:47 25th October 2012
bronco says...
I think Lithuania's record is as valid as anyone else's.
You can only play the team in front of you, and I am sure they slogged their guts out as much as anyone to get that streak.
Good on them
Posted 04:44 25th October 2012
kybone says...
Rosbif- I am in fact English. Not sure why you assumed i was Irish. I take issue with this point 'So they are pushing for more automatic berths in HCup at the expense of lower ranked Pro12 teams''. Thats not the situation at all my friend. For a start the proposal is to reduce the number of participants in the HC.. Those removed places would come from the Pro12, but there will certainly not be more English or French clubs involved. Of course removing teams means the remaining ones get a larger slice of the pie but the same goes for the remaining Pro12 clubs. As for the English wanting the Pro12 players to 'bash the living daylights out of each other'- as a result of the proposed changes to the HC the Pro12 clubs will then have to qualify for the tournement. This means that there would be less 'dead rubber' games and something to play for for the teams that are at the bottom end of the league. As i see it, that can only be a good thing as the fans surely want to watch more competitive games with something actually riding on them. I keep hearing arguments against change, but all i keep seeing in the Pro12 is ever dwindling crowds to the point where some clubs are now struggling to make ends meet. This must surely mean that the fans aren't happy with what they're seeing.
Posted 19:41 24th October 2012
Rosbif says...
...Oooops, Sorry kybone, I don't know why I assumed you might be Irish. The other explanation is that you're indeed English, and just don't mind debating with Sincero. Brave, certainly.....
Posted 08:48 24th October 2012
Rosbif says...
@kybone. A very eloquent post! (from an Irish man I believe?) In the same breath, I shall attempt to do you the honour of replying with my interpretation of the Celtic argument (although I accept as a Frenchman I may not get it absolutely right). Here goes....
The English and French have much more money at club level so can buy bigger squads of more experienced players. They cannot fathom why Irish teams have been winning the HCup. How very dare they? It cannot be purely on merit. There must be a catch. They have no interest in seeing the game in Italy, Scotland or other nations like Spain etc develop. And they need to make as much $$$ as possible from the HCup to "feed" their galacticos and pay their bills. It's purely business you see. So they are pushing for more automatic berths in HCup at the expense of lower ranked Pro12 teams. Oh, and for good measure, they would like to see Pro12 teams bash the living daylights out of each other all season long, to make sure Eng and Fra can have a fair crack at the 6N, which is going the way of the HCup these days, and soon will be shared between Wales and Ireland (if they could find a decent coach) every year. The last thing the Eng and Fra clubs care about is how the NH teams do vs SH. That's not their problem. So long as the domestic clubs make $$$, the rest is inconsequential.
(Apologies to anyone I will have offended or mis-represented - probably English, French and Celtic in equal measure - I was just trying to see the argument from an alternative point of view!)
:-)
Posted 08:32 24th October 2012
kybone says...
Sincero- How do you work out that the English argument has been blown out of the water? The English point being that they are unable to rest players in the same fasion as the Pro12 sides, and by the business end of the season they've played considerably more high intensity rugby than the Celtic counterparts, then still have things to fight for on a domestic front whilst HEC quarter and Semi-finals are taking place. The fact that Leinster's relative bad form is being blamed on rustiness and lack of match practice, when we're 8 games into the season, is actually further proof of what the English clubs are saying. Hell, some clubs in the Pro12 rested players on the opening day of the season! This is why, come the business end of the season, the big Pro12 teams will be hitting their stride whilst the English and French will be running half empty.
Posted 21:05 23rd October 2012
melkdave says...
@Jaystar
Nice idea bro about the weekday double headers ,something for the IRB and unions to think about .
Posted 15:54 23rd October 2012
Sincero says...
@lost profit... Edinburgh are dire, but that doesn't make the English correct- no, they don't deserve to be there- however, if we were running the qualification from the league as I suggested, ten berths on merit, Edinburgh would not have qualified. Also, the fact that Leinster and Munster, who have most players in the Player Protection Scheme, have been rusty and disjointed while the English and French are fit and battle-hardened actually disproves the fallacious argument the English were putting forth. Player management hurts the Provinces, and the I.R.F.U. know that- they set it up to aid the international team (which it might, if our coaching ticket hadn't been so utterly trousers for the past decade and then some). The English argument has been blown out of the water.
Posted 11:25 23rd October 2012
JayStarr says...
I think perhaps Lithuania's record just shows how few quality matches they actually get. I mean, could the IRB in 18 games not find an opponent strong enough to beat Lithuania..? The "apartheid of the tiers" created by the IRB is not condusive to growing the game. The top teams should play against a lower tier team at least once a year.
What I suggest is the following:
During the SH June test series the IRB should allow three Tier 2 nations to travel to South Africa, New Zealand and Australia along with the Tier 1 teams. SA, NZ and AUS can then pick A-teams to play weekday games against the Tier 2 countries, which will prevent white-washes (i.e. make the games competitive - which will be good for all involved) and it will also give their top players who did not make their national squads a taste of test rugby, instead of having them just sit at home going cold for three or four weeks while Super Rugby is on a break. The Tier 1 touring teams can still play weekday games against provincial/barbarian sides... and these two weekday games could be combined to create a bigger occassion (and attract more fans to the stadiums for the weekday games).
So let's take this year's tours as an example: England, Ireland and Wales toured South Africa, New Zealand and Australia respectively. If Canada, Georgia and Japan also went on tour with them, you would've had the Tier 1 tests on Saturday, with a double bill on Wednesdays between:
England "A" v. SA province/barbarians & Canada v. SA "A";
Ireland "A" v. NZ province/barbarians & Georgia v. NZ "A"; and
Wales "A" v. AUS province/barbarians & Japan v. AUS "A".
With cheap tickets (and beer), these are occassions I would go to a stadium for on a Wednesday evening.
Posted 09:58 23rd October 2012
daibok says...
Re Sam Allardyce - Utter rubbish. A discredited game played by overpaid handbag merchants. When illegal thuggery occurs in rugby the fuss made in these posts says it all.
Curry Cup. Yes, this year's seems strange. I think that travelling Springbok squad members should be left out completely. This would build stable teams such as last year's Lions and would bring more transformation players to the fore. Central contracts anyone?
Posted 09:44 23rd October 2012
bigb6969 says...
Phill_Moore & olepete. The record unbeaten run is held by the All Blacks , 23 games including one draw 1987-1990. They never played South Africa at that time, so some don't think it should count. But just like Lithuania it were sanctioned tests and counts as the record.
This time around, if we beat Scotland and Italy and we can say is at least this will be the 2nd best unbeaten run of all time.
The try scoring record was 105 tests. The last time the All Blacks had failed to score a try was 7 August 2004 in Sydney losing to Australia 18-23. Test numbers 389 to 493.
Soccer behaviour is full of petulant childish morons , rugby players are far more accepting of the refs decision, but violence on the field, rugby can be worse. The supporters give the wooden spoon clearly to soccer.
Posted 08:41 23rd October 2012
lostprofit says...
@Sincero
To be fair, the last two rounds wernt exactly fantastic. If they mentioned how terrible Edinburgh was and how this means the English are correct about qualifying, would you be happy then?
I am not having a go at you, but nothing major happened. I dont see a point of talkign about it.
Round of applause for Mr Allardyce. Quick FYI, hes a joke to all football fans. He plays boring long ball football, thinks hes much better than he is (had his shot at a big club and blew it in some fashion) and cant even get a job as a pundit because of his lack of insight and understanding. Guaranteed most people are laughing at him over this.
Its Lithuania's record. Some claim most of the teams they beat were below them. Guess what? Most of the teams NZ beat were/are below them :D
They worked hard for that record and deserve all the praise they recieved about it. We shouldnt be arguing, we should be paying respect to a group of semi-professionals who love the game so much that they went through all that hardship just to represent their country. Should remind us all of why we love the game.
@Norm
I got another one for you. ASM V Munster, heineken cup maybe 2008? Quinlin walking back brushes against an ASM player. Bearly touches him with his shoulder. Not a shoulder charge or dirty play mind. He was just walking away or retreating. The ASM player fell to the ground holding his face and munster were peanilised.
Didnt like ASM for a long time after that :)
Posted 05:17 23rd October 2012
JayStarr says...
I'm sorry Anderson, but you are VERY wrong on your Lions scenario...
The Lions got Pat Cilliers, Elton Jantjies and Jaco Taute back from the Springboks for this game... while WP got Eben Etzebeth, Duanne Vermeulen, Bryan Habana and Juan De Jongh back. That is ONE more Springbok than the Lions - hardly the scewed playing field picture you are trying to paint!
Maybe you should give up on journalism and try your hand at fiction.
Posted 22:16 22nd October 2012
philipjfry says...
I've just read the Sam Allardyce article and there's not much in it. He was trying to make the point that footballers get harsher backlash from the media (perhaps) when they transgress. It's easy to misconstrue what he said, those involved in football are not exactly known to be great linguists. Anton Ferdinand actually used the word(?) 'innit' in court. But then again, listening to some of the commentary from ex-rugby players (I'm talking to you Warren Brosnihan!) and the post-match interviews from current players it's a good thing they can make a living out of throwing a ball around.
Posted 19:15 22nd October 2012
jmanngod says...
Frankly the Lithuanian record is irrelevant... all power to them but they would likely lose to the local rugby club in any small ton of NZ. It is on the same level as Daisuke Ohata's record try scoring number. 30 try's against singapore just doesn't compare with trys against NZ, SA etc....
Posted 19:01 22nd October 2012
ste490 says...
The public vote says it all for me, foolish man.
Posted 18:18 22nd October 2012
davodiablo says...
Regarding the record: I've climbed Mount Taranaki but I'm no Sir Edmund Hillary.
Posted 17:26 22nd October 2012