Gatland: Was there anyone else?
This week we will mostly be concerning ourselves with the Lions and the Rugby Championship...
So the rugby world's worst-kept secret is out: Warren Gatland will lead the British and Irish Lions to Australia. Twelve years on from Graham Henry's somewhat rollicking tour, another Kiwi will add his personal love of beating the Wallabies to the Lions' mix.
Was there anyone else? Despite Andy Irvine's insistence to the contrary, probably not. Neither Declan Kidney nor Andy Robinson have excelled enough in their roles to warrant lengthy consideration, while Stuart Lancaster is way too green. From club level, you might have been tempted to look at the coaching staffs of Munster, Leinster, Harlequins and Saracens, but otherwise there's not much around.
After the Henry tour, marked by some apparent internal personality and culture clashes, a lot said "never again a non-B&I person." But Gatland, with a long track record in Ireland, England and Wales, comfortably transcends that border.
It's going to be an interesting tour though. Gatland is known for having a titanium-clad streak of stubbornness within, belied by an easy-going nature in general. Obviously the Welsh have bought in, but it will be interesting to see if, as on Henry's tour, it takes time for the non-Welsh in the squad to buy in in the same way the Welsh have.
That stubborn nature is going to be tested to the full when it comes to France. The opening salvos have already been fired in Toulon, with Bernard Laporte issuing hands-off instructions over Gethin Jenkins. Others will surely follow despite Gatland's goodwill tour which has already secured the services of one J.Wilkinson.
And that point is now where the questions start for real. Who, what, and how will these B&I Lions go about their business? Are we looking at a classic tour, full of goodwill and enterprise like the last one (which Gatland was on and contributed to hugely)? Or with the calendar eating into preparation time and the cash-rich sponsors queuing up, with an extra match on the tour in Hong Kong and a crowded schedule on the tour itself, could we end up having a hyper-professional, exclusive 'untouchables' tour like Sir Clive Woodward's? Will the Lions knit under Gatland as they did under Geech or will the tribes start squabbling as they appeared to do under Henry?
That will all be answered next June. In the meantime, the Lionswatch for players begins here. And as is our wont - and no doubt with you guys ready with sharpened hatchets in anticipation of all our 'wrong' choices - we'll kick off the fun with our projected starting XV, based on a blend of form and experience, perhaps a little flexibility, and with a dash of good old intuition and hunch in there. Let the catcalling begin....
15 Rob Kearney, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 BOD, 12 Jamie Roberts, 11 George North, 10 Rhys Priestland, 9 Mike Phillips, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Sam Warburton, 6 Stephen Ferris, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Paul O'Connell, 3 Adam Jones, 2 Ross Ford, 1 Gethin Jenkins.
16 Rory Best, 17 Cian Healy, 18 Donncha O'Callaghan, 19 David Denton, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Toby Flood, 22 Leigh Halfpenny.
If you had to put money on it, would you bet against Argentina when they welcome Australia to La Plata in three weeks' time?
A win against South Africa does little to paper over the cracks in this Wallaby side. They still look as though they are playing to a game-plan that is beyond them, especially while their leading players continue to drop like flies. Patience is always a watchword, but the shapelessness of the team at times must be a cause for concern.
The captain's armband has become something of a jinx down under. Horwill, Pocock and now Will Genia are all done for the year. Nathan Sharpe, stalwart leader of teams in adversity, is the logical interim choice, but he is sadly beginning to show a little of his age.
We'll see how they cope. At home this weekend you'd back the Wallabies to win. Yet they will find no let-up in the pressure from an Argentinean team that has now moved well beyond just finding feet on the big stage.
That was worth a mention. But if you are going to use the word shapeless, you'd now have to haul up the Springboks as the benchmark for that particular adjective.
They were awful. Jean de Villiers is running as though he has the world on his shoulders. Zane Kirchner offers absolutely nothing. Morne Steyn has been exposed over and over again. Up front, the Boks are discovering that it simply isn't enough to be an angry behemoth any more, that you need a little culture in your play. Jannie du Plessis is becoming a disciplinary liability, and the back row just doesn't seem to know how to help teams link.
But the most worrying aspect might be the behaviour of Eben Etzebeth. His ridiculous actions against Nathan Sharpe - an attempted headbutt at worst, a puerile act of childish intimidation at best - is an epitome of precisely the kind of indiscipline that pervades the current SA set-up. That Heyneke Meyer is considering a recall to Bakkies Botha, no stranger to a twitchy set of neck muscles himself, is a sure-fire sign that nobody in the leadership really knows where to go next.
But the Boks have to go for broke. The inevitable furore over any future defeats will be tempered by attempts to move on from the past and get the new generation up to speed. Right now, just calling back the old guard and attempting to win with yesterday's rugby will appease nobody.
Over-conservative, slow, shapeless. That's the Boks right now. Heyneke Meyer now has a lot more people to win over.
But here's a question: which team has played the most innovative, 'punch above their weight' rugby the past four years in SA? Why, the Cheetahs of course... consistently challenging the best with half the resources. Is it possible, as someone said in private the other day, that South Africa might have missed a trick by not looking to the coaching talents in Bloemfontein?
Loose Pass compiled by Richard Anderson
Comments
TVaddict says...
@rustytrumpet
Lydiate is a great tackler, but so is Ferris and he is a much better ball carrier, plus he can play other positions. Also Croft offers a lot more in the lineout, is a better distributor and more mobile. All three have their strengths, so I'd say it's about finding a balance in the backrow.
Posted 16:01 13th September 2012
rustytrumpet says...
Lets have a little re-think here PR about the lions team. ok 15 could easily be Kearney or Halfpenny (but HP kicks goals too), Priestland ? Seriously ? Im welsh and he seemed to go missing in lots of the 6 nations games, and you cant really be telling me that there is a better 6 in the B/isles if not the world at the moment than Dan Lydiate.
Come on sort it out.
Posted 12:50 13th September 2012
Norm says...
TV
If his young/ old knees are still working, no way you could consider not having Ferris smashing it up!
Posted 20:54 12th September 2012
TVaddict says...
Actually, it would be quite interesting to have a backrow of:
6) Robshaw
7) Warburton
8) O'Brien
All of them play 7 for their national team so we'd have three players backrow players competing for the ball effectively (three of them should be enough to counter Pocock!). However, O'Brien is a great ball carrier and would excel at 8 where he'd have more of an opportunity to do that. Some would argue Robshaw is a more natural 6 as he's got a great work rate and is an excellent tackler. All three are good distributors and Robshaw and Warburton are good lineout options. Seems balanced and it optimises our abilities at the breakdown.
Posted 13:30 12th September 2012
Norm says...
@ tv addict
agree re mobile forwards, but a bit of gnarl and gristle in the front row will always bother the aussies, look at Mark Regan in the 2007WC.
Marler is a good talent and great prospect, but have seen too much inconsistency to think he gets anywhere near a lions test 23. Still best part of another season before the call has to be made so who knows. Murray I am afraid is the same problem, obvious talent there but too much indecision, and inconsistency to his game particularly in a presure situation.
I wouldnt be too bothered about keeping national 9 & 10 combinations together mate, for me that is part of the magic of the lions. Look at Roberts and BOD in SA. What it was like to see the great man flourish with someone of Roberts calibre beside him and to see Roberts play the rugby of his life alongside O'Driscoll, personally I think Roberts had taken a bit of a dip that season and he has been unstoppable since that tour. The magic is in the mix up. I cant wait!
The lions brings joy to rugby, I see many on here who make it sound antiquated and ready for the scrapheap. Yes it puts a burden on player welfare, but I think it maintains something irreplaceable in the game and something which on occasion appears to be decreasing with every season:
fun!
Posted 12:30 12th September 2012
ImLaigheanIt says...
O'Callaghan on the bench, RA are you on pot?
Posted 15:38 11th September 2012
TVaddict says...
@norm
Well I thought Sexton was the only real choice at 10, and I like to keep 9 and 10 combinations together. Although I'd be equally happy with Redden. As for Marler I thought he did really well starting his international test career against a South African front row that was full of experience and holding his own. Talk about a baptism of fire! He'll only get better this year, plus his work rate around the park is excellent. He'll be first choice for England come the 6 nations and if he does well I think he could warrant a lions call up.
I think that Australia will be a very different test than South Africa and that we'll need a mobile and fit pack of forwards, rather than big and bulky.
Posted 12:00 11th September 2012
startledwombat says...
>but the Aussie front row isn't much of a threat.
This may well change, if and when three things happen:
- the top players are back from injury
- the tighthead prop learns how to scrum properly
- the tighthead prop learns how to scrum properly.
Posted 10:24 11th September 2012
cuw3100 says...
@ Mr. Anderson : Is it a printers' devil that you have Gethin Jenkins on the Lions starting XV, whereas in the early part of the article you say Toulon have refused to release him? make up your mind :)
As for B BOTHA, me thinks its the reputation he has gathered over many years that results in all the negative comments. Statistics will show clearly that he is not penalized more than any other player BUT when he is penalized it is for a controversial reason, which often stands out like a sore thumb. It was always interesting when big Brad was also on the park; those 2 had a real rivalry not seen since Ian Jones and John Eales :)
Posted 05:19 11th September 2012
BDAUSSIE says...
The Wallabies team for the Lions Tour:
1.Slipper (Robinson if we need someone purely for their scrimmaging ability)
2.TPN or Moore (both are world class)
3.Kepu (Palmer if we need someone purely for their scrimmaging ability)
4.Horwill
5.Timani
6.Higgers
7.Pocock
8.Palu (or Samo if Palu is injured)
9.Genia
10.Cooper
11.Ioane
12.Tapui/Barnes
13.AAC
14.O'Connor
15.Beale
16. Moore
17. Robinson/Palmer/Alexander (depending on who is in better form at the time)
18. Simmons/Neville
19. Dennis
20. Hooper
21. Phipps
22. McCabe
Pretty strong line-up. The back row and locking combination are particularly strong. Horwill / Timani tandem next year will provide serious impact. That is a big aggressive pack for an Aussie side. Dangerous backline. Hooper to come on for Higgers in the final 20 minutes to tag team the breakdown with Pocock (absolute domination).
It¿ll no doubt be a very close series. Honestly I think the Lions¿ best chance will be to choose a strong Scrum and build their game around that. It¿s certainly one area where the Lions should have the upper hand. With that said, that area is no longer a glaring weakness for the Wallabies. They have a good pool of solid props, most of which can play TH and LH, and dare I say guys like Alexandar and Slipper are much more useful around the park than most British and Irish props. If the Wallabies are forced to pick a front row merely on scrummaging ability they have the cattle to do that = Robinson / TPN / Palmer
Posted 00:18 11th September 2012
whatisthis says...
Agreed rucking kiwi, but then apart from will genia, Oz don't offer much in this area either.
Last lions tour had 37 players named at the start.
Props: Jones, Jenkins, Healy, Cole, Corbisiero
Hookers: Best, Ford, Hartley
Locks: O'Connell, Gray, A W jones, Charteris, Lawes
Flanks: Rennie, Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien, Lydiate, Warburton
No 8's: Faletau, Heaslip
SH's: Murray, Youngs, Phillips
OH's: Sexton, Priestland, Farrell
Centres: BOD, Tuilagi, Roberts, Davies
Wings: Visser, Bowe, Ashton, North, Cuthbert
FB's: Kearney, Foden
4 Scottish, 10 Irish, 10 English, 13 Welsh
Job Done:)
I'd love to see some of our SH posters coming up with a SH best of the 4 nations. I think it might outshine ours quite a bit....
Posted 23:24 10th September 2012
norm says...
Good recovery tv addict but what is the excuse for joe marler being on there. And conor murray? I am irish but really?
Posted 23:19 10th September 2012
TVaddict says...
Oh dear, at 5 I meant Donnacha Ryan...
Posted 22:06 10th September 2012
ruckingkiwi says...
Times must be tough if they're thinking about Bakkies, he hasn't played a test in a year and was struggling to keep up last time he did.
The last two Lions tours the problem area has been 9, 10 and 12, nothing has changed this time either, there just aren't any stand out candidates.
Posted 21:09 10th September 2012
JayStarr says...
@ kinsman: First of all, you talk about Bakkies Botha as a "liability", as if he gives away penalties/yellow cards in every game he plays, while completely ignoring his qualities as a player... So I'm finding it hard to take you seriously already.
Secondly, Bakkies is 32 - which is still a good age for someone in the tight five. So it would not be like bringing those players back...
And thirdly, there is not another no.4 lock in SA who is on the same level as Etzebeth and Bakkies. Flip vd Merwe is the next best - I mean, how sad is that? It is probably our weakest position. And Flip vd Merwe is a penalty machine if ever you have seen one - not because he's "dirty", but because he is just plain stupid...
So to answer you: Since these are our only two realistic options, I'd rather risk giving away a penalty or yellow card because Bakkies crossed the line while being the most physical player on the field, than give away a penalty or yellow card because Flip vd Merwe ran onto the field and did something stupid.
Kapish?
But I would also just like to add:
There are few players who scare other players. Bakkies Botha is one of them. I am not having myself told that he got that reputation just because he played "dirty". Bakkies got that reputation largely because he is one of the most physical players to ever play the game - and he is respected by other players for it. Yes, he has done some really stupid things - probably none more so than his headbut on Cowan - but after that he became really good at controlling his aggression, even when opposition players tried to rile him up (as they always do)... So I don't think he is as much of a liability as you say he is.
At the end of the day, we have to play the All Blacks this weekend. And if you play the All Blacks, Bakkies is far more of an asset than a liability. That's the bottom line.
Posted 20:58 10th September 2012
Shadow_Dragon says...
15. Kearney 14. Ashton 13. Tuilagi 12. Roberts 11. North 10. Sexton 9. Youngs
8. Heaslip 7. Warburton 6. Ferris 5. Lawes 4. Grey. 3.Jones 2. Hartley 1. Corbisiero
Subs Halfpenny, Hook, Phillips, O Brien, AW Jones, Cole, Best, Jenkins
I feel this line up would really test the wallabies front row and also a lot of players to make an impact off the bench!
Posted 20:23 10th September 2012
leinster_goy says...
one of the big issues for the lions is: who goes toe to toe with pocock at 7? i'm still unconvinced by warburton. good breakdown skills, but he's come off second best to the zimbabwean every time the taffies play australia. and if i'm not mistaken he was injured for the majority of wales' grand slam campaign, and they seemed to cope alright without him. logically, so would the B&I lions
one alternative is the Carlow Cannonball. as much as Seany's breakdown work has progressed over the last 12 months (shown in the 6 nations and, of course, in the dying moments against clermont), i doubt if he is the best candidate for facing pocock. tipuric walks a fine line of legality in his methods and still lacks test level experience. i have to say i'm a big fan of ross rennie - great ability and, at the moment, one of the few scotch players worthy of putting on a lions shirt
@RA come on richard admit it, you dangled the Sexyboy-less bait just for me, didn't you. and putting donncha o'chunkybums on the bench...if you're going to extract the urine, at least be original
Posted 19:25 10th September 2012
melkdave says...
To early imo ,to even think of Lions selectiions ,and as for that 22 LOL1900 limit is to small to say whats wrong with it .
I have to agree with the comments about Australia and S.Africa though i think CLUELESS is missing from the bokke litanay.Also im begining to think the frontrow props are well past their best,not only penalty liabilites but they totally failed to dominate the scrum ,and even lost it truth to be told.Against a team renowned for its weak scrum .The failure of the management is of course a greater concern,Its persistance in using an outdated gameplan,and then not picking the best players to exacute it or expand on it is scandalous and JdV shouldnt even be in the squad given his present form,let alone an automatic choice as captain.At least you can see Australia improving as their injured players return You cant say the same about the bokke in any way shape or form.and that is the most worrying aspect concerning SA rugby atm Maybe SARU did miss an oppotunity in not going with the Cheetahs coach ect,at least they innovate and dont live in the past ,as seems most SA coaches do.
Posted 17:58 10th September 2012
APV1 says...
Interesting twist on the Lions story:
IRB regulation 9.6b reads: "The quadrennial British and Irish Lions Tour is a Designated Event and all Players selected to participate shall be released.
"The Release Period shall ordinarily commence on 1 June and ordinarily conclude on the 2nd weekend of July in the relevant year."
And rule 9.9 adds that players should be "available to train at least five clear days prior to the commencement of the international match, international tour or international tournament".
Well, well, well...
Posted 17:15 10th September 2012
Willy says...
Gray is a nailed on starter (did you forget about him or something PR), Best at the moment is the no1 starting hooker and Sexton is the only real option at 10.
Other outside calls, Tim Visser on the wing possibly, Richart Strauss as hooker (now irish qualified).
Posted 17:01 10th September 2012