Derek McGrath: Can't envisage Heineken Cup without English clubs
Organisers of the Heineken Cup believe it would be "almost unthinkable" not to have English clubs in a European tournament.
There is uncertainty over Europe's biggest club competition's future as its current format comes to an end in 2014.
English clubs, and their French counterparts, are currently unhappy at qualification criteria and scheduling of the tournament.
The English teams are upset that Celtic outfits can rest their players for domestic games as unlike in England, there is no relegation or promotion in the PRO12 league.
This unhappiness between the English teams and their European counterparts has led to fears that Aviva Premiership sides will have to leave the Heineken Cup and form their own competition.
Premiership Rugby Limited (PRL), the organisation representing England's leading clubs, also announced that they had agreed a £152million deal with BT to show domestic and European matches from 2014 onwards.
That conflicts with another agreement between European Rugby Cup Ltd (ERC), the organisers of both the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups, and their existing UK broadcast partner Sky Sports.
The two factions held a meeting in Dublin last week but could not reach an agreement and another is scheduled to take place next Monday in Rome.
ERC CEO Derek McGrath has hinted that European rugby's governing body would be open to some sort of compromise to prevent the English clubs from withdrawing from European competitions.
"It is almost unthinkable that could happen," he said.
"I think everyone knows how important the tournament has become in every single country.
"It (having English teams pull out) is not something we are focused on in any way.
"We have a two-year notice period for a reason, which is to allow us to understand where we might be going to. That is an open opportunity to allow people to understand what we might do differently."
The ERC insisted PRL do not have the authority to agree TV deals for tournaments that are played outside their borders and McGrath criticised the PRL for thinking that all the clubs involved would agree with their proposal.
"There was a lot of surprise and there continues to be in terms of the decision to pre-judge an outcome," he said.
"We have a centralised approach to marketing. That is what all the unions have approved and that's what is recognised under the International Rugby Board (IRB) regulations so to do things in a different way is not only pre-judging an outcome, it's also doing it outside the institutions that are set down and respected by everyone.
"While there have always been challenges, there always has been respect for each other's country and cultures, etc. This has changed the agenda."
But the PRL are adamant they were allowed to negotiate their own contract as part of a deal they currently have with the Rugby Football Union (RFU).
The RFU themselves are investigating PRL's claim, but McGrath believes they do not have the RFU's permission to negotiate a separate deal.
"The board can only reject a deal that is not receiving the authority of (the country's respective) union under IRB regulations," he revealed.
"We understand that no approval was sought so therefore the ERC, even if it wanted to, couldn't recognise any such dealing."
Comments
melkdave says...
@Porridge_Time
How wrong are you in your last post Ireland ,Wales and Scotland Italy have atm semi profensional leagues of their own ,So the teams/clubs are there to turn them into fully profesional clubs/teams if the funding and will is there.They are even listed on the BBC rugby pages in fixtures/results.Or do you think quality players just appear from nowhere,with skills honed and trained to a high leval .Once again you show your lack of knowlege about the great game .
Posted 12:47 10th October 2012
porridge_time says...
The top sides from each country are represented, because the Sco, Ire, Wal and Ita do not have enough number to create their own professional league the did the most sensible thing that was create a competitive league of their own.
The fact that Edinburgh chose to concentrate on the HC is neither here nor there... this is sour grapes on behalf of the PRL. If the English clubs pull out then the French will be happy, because they want a smaller competition that does not impede on their domestic league.
Posted 14:04 09th October 2012
melkdave says...
@Speartackle
Youve hit the nail on the head ,changing the HEC format wont lessen Leinster or Munsters or any others chances of wining it at all.If they are top teams in europe What it will do is change the dynamic of the Pro12,and hopefully make it revalent and meaningful.Thus getting supporters bums back on seats,and generating meaningful income for all the teams.Espically the scottish,welsh and italian where numbers are low atm.It may give supporters something to get excited about,and wont allow clubs just to coast in the league anymore,which may make the rugby even better aswell.It may even lead to a TV deal for the Pro12 if theres something for the clubs to battle for,most know they arnt going to challange for the championship. given the disparity between Leinster/Munster and now Ulster also Ospreys/Scarlets compared to the others in squad size and income ect.,and thus have nothing to fight for,and then just put the resources into the HEC.The premier club competion in europe should be between the best in europe on merit ,as the ERC itself says ,there should be no weak or weaker teams there at all ,every game should be a battle .This is what i and i suspect most fans want ,and because i see advantages to the pro12 even though im english ,why im arguing for a change in format .ts alsowhy i just cany understandthe posters wanting the status-que ,unless they just want scottish and italian and the weaker irish/welsh clubs to be perpeptually weak teams .The AMLIN is the place for those teams along with some from the teir 2 countries,already there and those that didnt qualify from the AP anfdT14.There they can progress,and start wining instead of losing 9 out of 10 times,the more they win and progress the more confidance they generate ect and eventually they are world class sides.qualifying for the HEC on merit and challanging the big boys for it.
Posted 14:19 07th October 2012
Speartackle says...
@melkdave
From the article: "... The English teams are upset that Celtic outfits can rest their players for domestic games as unlike in England, there is no relegation or promotion in the PRO12 league."
The point is: even if a relegation-qualification system was on, Munster and Leinster, DOING EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THEY HAVE DONE SO FAR, would be qualified every year for HC (because every year are finalist contenders in pro12, resting or not their players).
Big Deal.
Posted 09:46 07th October 2012
Speartackle says...
@melkdave
I agree with that. The reason why Leinster and Muster are winning is because they have the biggest concentration of big guns in them. Saying that, what's the point in changing the HC format?... Still, Leinster and Munster would win it (or have the same chances of doing it).
If I have not misunderstood, the English Board is pressing to put a qualyfing system for Rabo12 teams, to partecipate the HC (the same they have English and French clubs in their champs). Doing that, I repeat, the only result would be the exclusion of Italian teams and, maybe, the scottish too.
Would you like it?... I prefer much more to have a competition like the one we have, with all the six nations rapresented in that.
Posted 09:29 07th October 2012
melkdave says...
@Speartackle
LOL well ive been saying the player resting arguement is bull from the statt,every player AP or Pro12 plays about the same number of games 30 in a season.The difference is Pro12 teams can and do abandon their league programme,for HEC glory. THAT IS WHAT THE ENGLISH and FRENCH CLUBS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT.The fact that both Leinster and Munster,can also get to the Pro12 final ,just shows they have a bigger better squad than the rest of the Pro12.Not surprising really ,when you consider the IRFU has concentrated most of the best players in Ireland in those teams ,and also allows them to have 33% or a third of the 1st team squad ,quality overseas players,and gives them a huge budget compared to any other Pro12 club ,and even some/ most english and french clubs.So your arguement is totally bogus ,by anyones standard.We arnt fools you know ,so think before posting such rubbish and nonsense please.
Posted 21:15 06th October 2012
Speartackle says...
The English board said that Rabo12 teams are winning the HC bacause they dont have to struggle to qualify for the HC of next season (so they can rest their players during domestic league games).
This is NONSENSE. Munster and Leinster, that won the last HC four editions of the latter five, also reached the finals in the Celtic League every year. So, supposing that a qualification system was on, they would have reached and won the HC, anyway, the same times.
The only difference in a new format, will be that we won't have any Scottish (maybe one) or Italian team in the HC. But Leinster and Muster will continue to win it. This is quite easy to undertsand.
I wouldn't like to have a competition without Italians or Scottish.
Posted 15:52 06th October 2012
melkdave says...
Annother rebuttal of the supposed bad standard in the AP is before Saturdays matches1413 points scored with27 bonus points against 1239 points scored and 23 bonus points in the Pro12.So whos scoring more points ,and getting more 4 try games and close games ??
Posted 14:45 06th October 2012
kybone says...
rugby_rockstar - Are you simple? You keeping banging on about the same things even though you.ve already been proven wrong. 'create a product we're proud of and that'll attract fans and keep them coming back for more?'- This is what you said in reference to the Prem needing to improve. Once again i will point out that the Prem already attracts considerably more fans than the Pro12. It also has far better commercial partners and a big TV deal with SKY, where as you can watch Pro12 games on S4C and the BBC red button. Why are the fans, the businesses, and the big tv companies involved with the Prem? Because they see it as attractive and they want to be part of it.
All the poster' on here slating the quality of the Prem, you haven't got a clue. How can you make an informed opinion of the league unless you watch a lot of it? And if you do watch a lot of it, why if its so bad? Most of the arguments and comments against the Prem on here are based on nothing more than a desperation for England to fail at everything they do, and have no substance or facts to back them up. Basically nothing more than jealousy amd envy.
Posted 16:50 05th October 2012
kybone says...
jaycee_111- So only people who play rugby go to watch it do they? Thats funny, i didn't know that you you could play rugby AND go and watch a game at the same time! And how come crowds in Wales are so low. Apart from two decent football teams they have nothing but Pro12 rugby to watch. England has 90 odd pro football teams, 20 odd pro rugby league teams, and another 12 pro rugby union teams below the Prem.
'Not even the English want to watch their own league it appears'- Did i not point out that there are almost twice as many people watching Prem rugby as there are watching Pro12 rugby. Basically you talk a load of rubbish. The numbers don't lie. The combined populations of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Italy can't match the crowds of the Prem. This must lead to one conclusion- the Pro12 is not attracting the fans. Ill leave it up to your imagination to work out why.
Posted 15:58 05th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
lawynd,
Are you honestly saying that wales hasn't improved since they brought in the regions? A 4 year could shoot that argument down in flames. and then you dismiss their recent grand slams like all six countries have fifty each! how many do Ireland have? and how many decades separate them??? Yeah, a grand slam is a doddle to win. As a proud Englishman is annoys me that the English messageboard posters have no wish to improve the quality of English club rugby or the National team. I've had plenty of arguments with Celtic fans, New Zealanders, Australians, everyone, I was backing up The England team, especially when they were world beaters, but that time has gone and it's not coming back while the status quo continues. Without a strong vibrant domestic scene England will not improve. And now we have PRL, rather than trying to improve, actually attempting to drag the rest of europe down to their level by forcing them to flog their star players as hard as we flog ours. I love rugby union and this attitude disgusts me. Just look at the facts and and ask yourselves if PRL are doing the right thing for Northern Hemisphere rugby. And as for Pro12, I just urge them to stick with whats working, because if you do then you'll keep winning and English rugby will have no choice but to improve and as an england fan thats what I want to see.
I'd love some southern Hempisphere fans to contribute and give their veiws. Lets here from the guys at the top of the tree. Should Northern Hemisphere rugby go down the English and french route of treating rugby as big business maximising turn over for the club owners, or should we put the rugby first create a product we're proud of and that'll attract fans and keep them coming back for more?
Posted 13:42 05th October 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
lawynd,
Are you honestly saying that wales hasn't improved since they brought in the regions? A 4 year could shoot that argument down in flames. and then you dismiss their recent grand slams like all six countries have fifty each! how many do Ireland have? and how many decades separate them??? Yeah, a grand slam is a doddle to win. As a proud Englishman is annoys me that the English messageboard posters have no wish to improve the quality of English club rugby or the National team. I've had plenty of arguments with Celtic fans, New Zealanders, Australians, everyone, I was backing up The England team, especially when they were world beaters, but that time has gone and it's not coming back while the status quo continues. Without a strong vibrant domestic scene England will not improve. And now we have PRL, rather than trying to improve, actually attempting to drag the rest of europe down to their level by forcing them to flog their star players as hard as we flog ours. I love rugby union and this attitude disgusts me. Just look at the facts and and ask yourselves if PRL are doing the right thing for Northern Hemisphere rugby. And as for Pro12, I just urge them to stick with whats working, because if you do then you'll keep winning and English rugby will have no choice but to improve and as an england fan thats what I want to see.
I'd love some southern Hempisphere fans to contribute and give their veiws. Lets here from the guys at the top of the tree. Should Northern Hemisphere rugby go down the English and french route of treating rugby as big business maximising turn over for the club owners, or should we put the rugby first create a product we're proud of and that'll attract fans and keep them coming back for more?
Posted 13:41 05th October 2012
APV1 says...
Is anyone else getting a head-ache from banging their head against a brick wall?
I am.
We have different opinions of the raison d'etre of the two ERC competitions.
We have different opinions as to the best way forward.
The Fench and English don't like the current system, as they feel it is unfair. They, quite rightly and in accordance to the ERC contractual rules, have handed in their notice.
Both the PRL and ERC have signed TV deals beyond the current system, both of which are moot for now.
Some like a reasoned debate, despite the difference of opinion - thank you 7ton, as an excellent example of this. Some prefer to sling insults and self-serving half-truths to support their arguments - you know who you are.
I'm fairly confident that we could amalgamate all of the various ERC threads and the arguments, in what-ever form, will remain fairly similar.
And there's nothing any of us can do about it.
We are all beholden to the people who are negotiating on the behalf of the parties involved.
So let's sit back and wait.
And let's hope they come to a mutually-agreeable format, with all 6 nations playing Euuropean rugby and us lot able to watch some of it.
It has been said (and, no I don't know who by. In fact, I may well have made this up) that a good negotiation leaves all parties unsatisfied. Let's hope that this one doesn't and everyone's a winner.
Posted 11:06 05th October 2012
melkdave says...
@Porridge_Time
Do you really think ,that as the game grows,english and french qualifiers will stay at 6 clubs??Of course it wont ,when Russian /Spainish or other nations clubs become strong enough to compete in the HEC our qualifiers will shrink.After all its a competion thats supposed to be for the best clubs in europe,Back in the 70s Bucharest where one of the best ,and would be in the HEC if it was around then Having national quotas actually hinders that process you know.,as it rewards a few at the expense of the whole.
Posted 10:25 05th October 2012
porridge_time says...
There are some posters who feel that the HC is for the development of European club rugby, where-as I disagree. It appears, to me at least, that the ERC also disagree.
Surely all levels of the game are for the further development of the game. What you cannot or are not willing to accept that in England the PR clubs do not manage their players properly and that coupled with poor coaching has them coming up short in Europe in recent years.
Posted 05:33 05th October 2012
porridge_time says...
rugby_rockstar...
Unfortunately your up against people who can't see past their own doorstep. Surely six entries into the ERC from England/French is more than a fair representation from their respective leagues. The fact that an English side has not done well in recent years is because they have not been good enough... everything else being thrown up is a smokescreen.
If they want a twenty team comp then reduce their numbers to four each. Why should the smaller countries entering the competition have to cow tow?
Posted 01:51 05th October 2012
melkdave says...
CONT
Also dont you think that if the scottish and italian teams actually had to fight for qualification ,it might make them a better stronger teams in the long run .That after all is how evolution works ,Can you deny they might just be better off in the AMLIN where they can actually progress ,and get supporters bums on seats ,thus giving them more income and develop Or are you just afraid that the irish clubs monopoly on being the power teams in the Pro12 will be broken ,and want to keep them poor and weak .Anyway enough from me ,just think a little before posting such nonsense and rubbish .
Posted 01:26 05th October 2012
melkdave says...
@Rugby_rockstar
Wheres the lies half truths,and insults,Have yu actually been reading the posts here and on other european threads??I accept the insults may not have come from you,But you have told untruths .The PRL and AP have delusions of granduer. you say.?How is doing their job in safeguarding english rugby ,by getting an agreement IF the AP clubs leave the HEC a delusion of granduer.Is that just envy because once again the celtic unions have sat on their arses and done nothing??They are going to screw up european rugby??Just how are they going to do that prey tell.The scottish ,irish italian clubs are run and owned by their unions ,for the benifit of the national team.Do you realy think they are going to let them close,and thus stop their delveloment of the national team.Think before spouting nonsense and untruths please.Resting players is done by all teams including AP.All players play about the same amount of games a season 30 ,The difference is the AP teams dont abandon their league program,for HEC success.Also your Sale annology is totally false,Sale actually qualified on merit,then had alot ofplayers leave ,and some new ones in ,its a completly different team now,and yes they are struggling atm,but then so are Ospreys and Munster Cardiff ..So annother lie untruth by you.Also you think pool 6 is weak ,just look at pool 3 Quins,Biaritz Connacht,Zebres ,thats even worse .And by the way your not the worst either @Sincero and @Porridge_Time are even worse and just hurl insults and even more lies ect.You cant seem to accept that maybe we who are arguing for change ,are making sense.You want the status -que because you precive an advantage for the irish teams ect nothing more.It has nothing to do with fairness or delveloping rugby in other countries.You even deny one of your own teams a leval playing feild Connacht.
Posted 01:15 05th October 2012
7ton says...
APV1
Thankyou for a very honest answer but it does therefore appear that your idea of what the HC should be differs slightly from what the ERC intended it to be..
I can understand how you could interpret things your way but maybe they were not meant to be interpreted that way.
However regardless of what the ERC intended we are all entitled to have our own views on how it should be and lets hope it can all be settled fairly.
Nice to have had a reasoned debate with you.
cheers
Posted 00:11 05th October 2012
lawynd says...
@rugby_rockstar - except what has this 'winning formula' won, exactly, for Wales, Scotland and Ireland on the international stage? Certainly not the Webb Ellis...and I suspect most Kiwi commentators would pour scorn on you likening the All Blacks to mere pretenders to their crown. England are the NH side to have come closest to them and actually, along with France, beat the men in black in recent memory. Sure there's the Six Nations...but didn't England win that only two seasons ago?
At a club level things are different, but then that's part of what this discussion is about. As for your mental rantings about Sale, I'll repeat what's already been said - they qualified, fairly and squarely based on competition rules, by finishing in the top six of the AP last season. This season, whilst embarrassing for them, has nothing to do with their right to participate. You, who is all about 'fairness' apparently, would deny a team, however badly they may be performing right now, the chance to compete in a competition they fairly qualified for? Zebre and Edinburgh have qualified, but in contrast to Sale, unfairly some might say. Hell, Zebre didn't even exist six months ago! And you're also suggesting that English clubs should only get four places now? How exactly does that work, pray tell?
Posted 19:08 04th October 2012