Calling for change: Clermont boss Jean-Marc Lhermet
Clermont general manager Jean-Marc Lhermet has added his voice to the growing number of calls for a change to the Heineken Cup qualification rules.
At a news conference for the launch of the 2012-2013 European Cup competitions in France on Monday, French clubs re-affirmed that they want a shorter schedule and for the Heineken Cup to be cut to from 24 to 20 clubs.
English and French teams need to finish in the top six of their domestic leagues to qualify for the Heineken Cup and authorities from both countries have been calling for the quota from the PRO12 to be reduced to six teams instead of ten.
"Is it really appropriate always to have two Italian clubs in the group stage? Is it normal that some teams automatically qualify while others have to fight for their place? I am not sure," said Lhermet.
Former France manager and current Toulon boss Bernard Laporte called for the European Cups to be played in two months to allow clubs to focus on their domestic fixtures afterwards.
"A single playing window would be more logical to me," he said.
"Then we could move on to our domestic championships."
At the same conference, European Rugby Cup (ERC) chairman Jean-Pierre Lux lashed out the English Premiership, calling the £152 million deal signed with BT to broadcast European matches involving leading English clubs from 2014 "illegal."
The deal contradicts the ERC's deal with the current rights holder BSkyB but BT have suggested they could create a new European competition.
"This is shocking because it is illegal," said Lux told.
"The English (delegates at the ERC) did not say anything about how the money from the deal will be shared between the domestic and European competitions and how it will be shared with the other countries' (clubs).
"They opened talks directly with some South African and French clubs. This has hampered the negotiations. It is hard to talk with them. We may have to move on without the English, though I do not want it."
Comments
new_j4a says...
@Sincero, Matty Williams is a bigger idiot than you are, and there are very few of those.
Posted 10:26 11th October 2012
7ton says...
Sincero
Yes the game is over! In fact it was over about a year ago and NZ won so you can squeal and squirm as much as you like but you can't change that.
Now for the final time this is nothing to do with this article and your video etc has been well argued against ages ago. Nothing you have said makes it any different and you may well continue but you are just wasting peoples time and that is the end of it.
Posted 02:06 03rd October 2012
Sincero says...
An international panel HEADED by Paddy O'Brien- the same international panel that demoted Wayne Barnes and Alan Lewis for making correct decisions against the All Blacks.
You can't point to any facts- lash up a video, or even a critical analysis on how Joubert favoured France! That's plainly dishonest.
And your counter-argument of insulting Matty Williams shows exactly where you are in this debate. Game over.
Posted 12:38 02nd October 2012
Toulousain says...
@7ton. thank you for your gracious and amicable post. it really gives me pleasure!! i'm afraid i have started a little war with some nz posters on the nz/pumas page. i made the mistake of getting angry on the web. too tired after the weekend i guess.
thank you again and peace :-)
Posted 09:22 01st October 2012
7ton says...
Toulousain
"too many "fans" seem too willing to believe what they are fed in the media."
That is very true indeed and you and I have talked about the NZ media in a previous article and I can quite believe what you say. I don't know about the French media but I can say that parts of the British media are downright shameful as well.
I can only speak for myself and other Kiwis that I know in saying that we admire French rugby in the way that they can "turn up" and beat any team on a given day. I sincerely hope that one day they will win a world cup. They deserve to!
Posted 14:33 30th September 2012
7ton says...
Sincero
That is pathetic and hypocritical considering that you have really insulted Craig Joubert by accusing him of being involved in a fix and do not even try band deny that you have not. As for Marty Williams I just commented on what one poster said. Another said it was a disgracefull bit of broadcasting and his little cherry picked incidents were well argued against and we could also cherry pick some incidents in that game where France got away with things.
Oh and the referees wee chosen by an international panel and certainly not just POB so stop making things up
Posted 14:04 30th September 2012
Sincero says...
PUMAS!!! However, Toulousain, please also note that no mention was made by any All Black player, captain or coach afterwards acknowledging the French effort. They are not good sports. And Paddy O'Brien chose the referee and the result.
However... GO PUMAS!!!
And roll on the European Cup!!
Posted 00:33 30th September 2012
Toulousain says...
@sincero. you make some very interesting points (as always). i guess i was talking just about the game. the specifics of the 80 minutes. the fact i don't think it was rigged etc. and the faintly romantic notion of fair play which is probably a hangover from the amateur days.
but you have a point with the chip/hate thing. what left a bad taste in the mouth of many france supporters was the treatment we received in the nz press, the utter lack of respect shown, the lack of recognition that the game was close, that we could have won etc etc.
we were turned into pantomime villains. the subsequent morality trial by youtube was shameful. no-one in france thinks what rougerie did was acceptable. but most see it for what it is. the actions of one man. in desperation. i really want to believe that 99% of nz rugby followers understand this. but i struggle to be convinced. we have had plenty of kiwis playing here in toulouse. they get it. but too many "fans" seem too willing to believe what they are fed in the media.
anyhow, we are a long way off the hcup topic now. it's late. i'm having an espresso and getting ready to watch my friend patricio albacete take on the ABs...
vamos pumas!!
Posted 23:31 29th September 2012
Sincero says...
And to be frank, I'm accusing Joubert of not having done his job. His motivation is up to you to surmise. However, the evidence is there for all to see.
Your response of insulting someone for pointing that out in a detailed analysis, against his wishes, is pathetic. Deal with the analysis, not more ad hominem B.S. You can't, though, so give up.
Matty Williams is a legend. What have you achieved in the world of rugby to come on here to denigrate him in such a fashion? Have a milky tea and go to bed. That's not the rugby way, mate. Bleeding poor show from you.
Posted 22:58 29th September 2012
Sincero says...
@Toulousain
Lots of love for our Trevor! I disagree with your ideas on the final... the NZer taking a poor decision on the chip as per the laws of fair play? Might I remind you of 2007... The correct decision made on a marginal call by the referee, and he was pillioried- including demotion and many death threats from the sporting N.Z. rugby public.
Allan Lewis had the temerity to sin bin Richie Mc.Caw in Cardiff leading into that R.W.C., correct call again, and he got dropped from the panel- a huge demotion again. Paddy O'Brien knows exactly what he's at.
7ton... so your counter argument is someone on here once insulted Matty Williams? Interesting... yet you don't mention any of the multiple incidents in the video.
For the record, Matty Williams is a gentleman, and is as honest as the day is long. He is a proper rugby bloke, and I really do not appreciate you coming on here to slag him off.
The analysis speaks for itself. That topic is over... the fix was in. Clear as day. Joubert the last in a line of referees who were bullied by Paddy O'Brien, or perhaps more. No major conspiracy... just the facts, in plain moving pictures for you in that clip.
Now you change the bleeding subject.
Posted 22:54 29th September 2012
7ton says...
sincero
There was a possible scenario where he could have ruled the French offside in the build up to that try
Surely he would have thought himself more silly if it was like what you claim
As I said all this has been brought up before on this site including that u tube video which was well and truly discredited on this site.
I remember 1 poster (possibly "justice for all" apology if it wasn't) describing the Aussie in the video as a "sanctimonious twat".
A bit insulting perhaps but then so is accusing Craig Jourbert of being corrupt.
Now if you really want to continue this old argument I suggest you bring it up in a future article which actually has some reference to this topic. If I have time I may even watch a replay of the game and not just some crap on U tube and put forward some further points
In the meantime I suggest we concentrate and enjoy the current abundence of rugby which is on.
Posted 19:37 29th September 2012
Toulousain says...
@sincero, as you may have guessed, i'm french, quite argumentative, and don't particularly have a love for the anglo-saxons (!!)....
i will probably be shot at home for saying this, but I don't think RWC was "rigged". we played very well in the final. accurate. aggressive. good individual plans well executed. patient. etc. very different to how we played in the pool stages. we were perhaps a little unlucky with injuries (parra) and some calls from the ref (as you point out). but nothing was rigged.
the game was close. we could have won. if we had, i like to think the nzers would have accepted the result with humility. therefore, i must do the same and accept the result with humility.
by accepting, i can move on. by moving on, my life is richer and i can learn to face future challenges. sorry for the psycho-babble, but that is the lesson of sport imo. always respect your opponent, the ref and "le jeu". funny, in french we call it "le fair play" because we imagine it is a british concept!!
salut mon ami :-)
p.s. trevor brennan is a legend in our town - and we love the irish spirit
Posted 19:09 29th September 2012
Sincero says...
No, 7ton, Joubert only whistled one way for the whole match. You think he should have disallowed all French scores to boot? Then even trusting people like you might have twigged something was amiss.
Why did he shout 'leave it' 4 times at that ruck? I'd guess because he thought he'd look pretty silly if he just left Kaino take it on offence #4, then it's thrown forward, and then picked up by an All Black who was also offside. Farcical.
Now, that was one ruck- but watch the analysis- he only whistled one way, and unfortunately decided the match. Was he poor or corrupt? I'd argue you can't be that poor. You might argue he could, however it's the inconsistency that stands out. Whistling the French for one offence, letting the Blacks play through the same offence. Sewn up for me, sadly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7C6bTHyC0U
(Or search: Craig Joubert - RWC 2011 - New Zealand V France - Post Match Analysis on the Referee )
Back to it: both issues are just another result of professionalism in rugby- money has led to the topic at hand as well. Filthy lucre at the heart of all problems in the sport, which is becoming more a business and less a sport each day. All we can do is to try and hang onto as much of the amateur ethos as possible, and when someone is caught trying to steal from the coffers, ahem, P.L.R. (or the Russians, if you read APV1's posts), then you slam the till shut on their fingers and tell they're a disgrace.
Posted 13:20 29th September 2012
7ton says...
Sincero
Well if the game was fixed then why the hell did Joubert (according to you) shout "leave it 4 times"? Why would he bother if he wasn't going to give a penalty anyway. Your version of that incident was well argued against ages ago.
How were France allowed to score that try? Surely the ref could have blown for an offside if he wanted to fix the game
Anyone who does know what they are on about knows that you could look at every breakdown or ruck and on most occasions find some reason to penalise a player. If you're biased it will be from just one side but if you're unbiased it will be from both sides.
Now can we please just stick to the subject here. Please!!
Posted 22:26 28th September 2012
Sincero says...
Argh: omit superfluous article too! Arthur's Day hangover still persisting. Wish we had an edit button, PlanetRugby, but I digress.
Anyway, in short, English rugby... for shame.
Thanks!
Posted 21:07 28th September 2012
Sincero says...
Sorry: Typo- should read *whose name you do not know*, though I know APV prefers the a more unusual usage involving a number of apostrophes. Must be precise with the pedants and pseudo-pedants about.
Posted 21:04 28th September 2012
Sincero says...
Oh, and while you're moaning about racism, don't forget to add Monsieur Lux to your list of boldies. He called your behaviour, or rather that of the organisation that represents you, who name you do not know, somehow:
'shocking'
'illegal'
And you're 'impossible to talk to'.
What a meanie!!! Fairly typical and accurate, though. Have a tissue.
Posted 20:01 28th September 2012
Sincero says...
Joubert refused to blow for 5 concurrent offences at a ruck under the N.Z. posts from 3 metres away from the scene for what would almost certainly have been the decisive 3 points... two offsides, two counts of handling in the ruck, and the player he shouted at to 'leave it' 4 times then threw the ball he'd illegally picked up forward... and Joubert didn't even give the scrum. It's not a complicated theory. But I do digress.
7ton, cheers for the interesting deabte. I've enjoyed reading your posts. Sometimes it seems these boards get swamped by people who don't know what they're on about at all.
APV (I repeat, because you were perhaps too embarrassed to answer, so you went for personal insults again)
So.... APV... I was right originally, and you called me out on calling your clown college P.L.R.? You thought it were P.R.L.?
So the pedant that you thought you were gets spanked on pedantry he thought up? Brilliant.
Ok. Cheers.
Like Manuel, you-ah know-eh nathing-eh. I think I'll be using the catchphrase 'don't mind him, he's from Bath' a lot on these boards.
Posted 19:57 28th September 2012
7ton says...
APV!
But your idea of the purpose of the HC and the Amlin very much is like having a 2tier Euro club competition.
Reduce the teams in the HC to 20 by all means but reduce the ammount from the AP and T14 as well. The Rabo is over 4 countries/
Say 5 from AP and T14 and 7 from rabo (incl. 1 from each country) Last years HC winner and top 2 from Amlin.
Posted 18:08 28th September 2012
melkdave says...
@7Ton
Yes there was talk of the RWC being a 2teir event ,it was a mistake reported falsely..This happened after what i thought was a resoniable idea from the RFU(yes once they had good ideas ,if you can belieive it lol).That the competion starts as now with your groups of 4 or 5 -6nations if its enlarged to 24.But after the groups have been decided.Those teams finishing 3rd and 4th ,should stay on and play for a Bowl or plate trophy ,thus giving those teir 2 or 3 teams more matches and tv coverage ,and a real attainianle goal at the RWC similar to what happens in 7s now.It was this aspect that was wrongly reported ,as being a 2 teir RWC.It was never intended as such ,as all teams start equal in the group stage,,it was just an idea to give those so called weaker teams annother goal ,and reason to qualify.It still looks a good idea to me ,wheather it will ever come to pass is well debateable .
Posted 16:47 28th September 2012