Planet Rugby

Letter of the week

09th January 2013 11:25

Planet Rugby mail

Got an opinion? Mail us!

Planet Rugby readers are never short of an opinion and our mail box is seldom empty. This week, one of our readers examines the impact bonus points would have had on past Six Nations Championships.

Got an opinion? We'd like to hear it, so why not send us an email HERE.

What would bonus points have changed in past Six Nations Championships?
By Giles Stokes

So the Six Nations is considering using the Bonus Point scheme. Personally I like the idea, I'd like to see more tries and the bonus point system rewards that, but what would the impact be for the tournament overall? I know some people don't want the change - after all the current system works, right? And it's the oldest, best followed tournament so why change it?

For me the place to start is to look at what would have changed if we'd been using a bonus point system in past years. And that's where being an excel geek data analyst helps - I've already got a spread sheet going back to 2000 that does exactly that. Sad I know.

Now I realise that had teams been operating under a bonus point system during those years there might have been some different decisions in any given game, with teams pushing for a fourth try instead of kicking a final penalty to keep themselves clear, so this is all just a complicated 'What if...' but let's have a look anyway.

First of all we can quickly see that over the thirteen competitions since 2000, eight years would see no difference under the bonus point system. So on a general basis the two scoring systems come out mostly in line with each other. But there are some changes.

In both 2000 and 2008 under the current system Italy came sixth and Scotland fifth. Both years each team won a single game.

In 2000 Italy beat Scotland in their very first 6N game and Scotland famously denied England the Grand Slam. So in the current system both picked up two points and points difference edged Scotland ahead.

Had they been using the bonus point system Scotland, would have only got those 4 points, but Italy would have their four from the win over Scotland and also picked up a bonus point for running in four tries against France. So, who deserved not to finish last - Scotland for denying the otherwise dominant England the Grand Slam mainly through the boot, or Italy for having played more entertaining rugby in their loss to France? I can see arguments both ways.

In 2008, Italy again beat Scotland in a close game, the difference being a single drop goal, and Scotland again beat England in a game with all the scoring limited to just penalties. Under the bonus point system Scotland picked up just one BP for their close lose to Italy, while Italy picked up two - for close losses to Ireland in Dublin and England in Rome. Both of those games were among the closest Italy has come to beating either of those teams. So Scotland had one close defeat and Italy had two. I think that is a little more clear-cut as to who deserved to finish higher.

But these two years the only difference is between fifth and sixth - not exactly the business end of the table. What other changes have there been?

In 2009, Ireland got their long-awaited Grand Slam. But with three wins, two losses and six points apiece England, France and Wales have nothing to divide them but points difference, which put England into second, France third, with Wales trailing in fourth the year after their second Grand Slam.

Under the bonus point system England pick up 2 try bonus points (Italy and France) and a losing BP (Ireland), Wales take one from their four tries against Scotland and two losing points (France and Ireland), but France only takes one from their seven tries against Italy.

So while their points difference is six higher than that of Wales, in the games they lost they did so by a bigger margin, losing by 24 and 9, while Wales only lost by 5 and 2, and England by 8 and 1. So under the bonus point system Wales are rewarded for their two close fought matches and leap frog France into third place.

But our last two competitions see an impact right at the top of the table where we really need to take a closer look to fully understand the repercussions of using this system - 2007 and 2002.

Between 2000 and 2007 Ireland had taken 2nd place more often than any other team and never finished worse than 3rd but they had yet to secure a victory.

2007 could have been their year until their third-round loss to France. But after beating England in the third round and England going on to beat France in the fourth round the competition opened up again with all three of those teams able to win in the final weekend. As it is England lost and France and Ireland won in the last round, and France took the championship with a points difference 4 greater than Ireland. But under the bonus point system Ireland would have picked up 2 try bonus points (England and Italy) and 1 losing (France) while France picked up 2 for tries (Italy and Scotland) but failed to pick up a bonus point in their loss to England. So, under the bonus point system Ireland would have secured their first 6N win two years before their eventual Grand Slam in 2009, thanks to a closer game in their single loss that year.

But the year that all the critics of the bonus point system point to as one of the best reasons not to adopt it is 2002 a year with a clear cut Grand Slam victory for France. But under the bonus point system it would be a victory for England - though it would have come down to points difference to secure it.

France managed to secure only a single bonus point from their five games - their five try victory over Ireland in Paris. Meanwhile, England picked up bonus points in every game losing by just five points to France, and scoring try bonus points against every other team. The end result would have been both teams tied on 21 points and England's points difference (48 higher than France's) would mean the bonus point victory over the Grand Slam winners.

This is however a fairly unusual set of circumstances. In every other Grand Slam winning year (03, 04, 05, 08, 09, 10 and 12) the winner of the Grand Slam has also been a clear winner under the bonus point system. So in most cases this wouldn't be a problem.

However, I think everyone is in agreement that the Grand Slam must take precedence, so a mechanism does need to be found to manage this situation should it recur.

There are two mechanisms that could be used to compensate for this pretty unusual circumstance. The first is the simplest - all involved simply agree that the Grand Slam takes precedence and points are only used to separate any teams that haven't won all five of their games.

The other mechanism would be to award additional Bonus Points for the Grand Slam, meaning that any winner of the Grand Slam would be taken out of the possible range of any 2nd place team.

So what's the worst-case scenario for this to come about? The winning team would have to get five victories without any bonus points for a total of 20 points. Meanwhile the 2nd place team takes four bonus point victories for 20 points plus picks up two bonus points against the winning team (scoring four tries and losing by less than seven... despite the fact that the winner didn't manage to score four tries... an odd result but certainly achievable) for a total of 22 points.

In that case awarding three bonus points for the Grand Slam pushes the winner of the Grand Slam clear of where any 2nd place team could get.

So overall what can we conclude?

More often than not the bonus point system has played no difference in the results of the 6Ns played to date. In the five competitions where there has been a difference three of them have not had an effect on the overall winner, just in where other teams have placed. So in only two out of thirteen competitions would it have had an impact on the winner.

In 2002 this would have been wrong, but there are simple solutions to that unusual situation that can be brought in. But in 2007 in would have changed the result.

We must each decide for ourselves whether we feel that change would have been a fairer reflection of the competition - a discussion I imagine may take partisan lines.

Comments

jontheref says...

stokesy

Yes, I realised you had used the 4 points for a win etc., what I was saying is, who knows what points systemthey will use.

They may go with 2 for a win, 1 for a draw, but still give a bonus for 4 tries.

Trying to put another scenario out there.

Posted 23:36 10th January 2013

jontheref says...

stokesy

Yes, I realised you had used the 4 points for a win etc., what I was saying is, who knows what points systemthey will use.

They may go with 2 for a win, 1 for a draw, but still give a bonus for 4 tries.

Trying to put another scenario out there.

Posted 23:36 10th January 2013

stokesy says...

@jontheref - sorry a bit lost. The analysis uses the current system used by the SH - 4 for a win, 2 for a draw 1 for 4 tries 1 for losing by less than 7... I'm not sure what numbers would need to be rerun.

Posted 19:44 10th January 2013

jontheref says...

KingShark

Good idea, it would help.

But the writer has used a 4 point win, as is shown in this

"France managed to secure only a single bonus point from their five games - their five try victory over Ireland in Paris. Meanwhile, England picked up bonus points in every game losing by just five points to France, and scoring try bonus points against every other team. The end result would have been both teams tied on 21 points and England's points difference (48 higher than France's) would mean the bonus point victory over the Grand Slam winners. "

If he had used the current points of 2 for a win, France would have had 11, and England 13.

So, if bonus points are introduced, they would need to adjust the win, draw number of points.

Stokesy, up to rerunning the numbers?

Posted 15:31 10th January 2013

KingShark says...

Perhaps the NH should first go and have a look at how the SH does it. 4 not 2 points for a win, and 2 not 1 point for a draw. That means that a bonus point is only worth 25% of a win, not 50% of one.

Posted 10:15 10th January 2013

mrbligh says...

hurricanes_m8 who cares what 'most people agree on' - the reason there's a table is to make it clear cut. If South Africa beat Argentina ('most people agree' they deserved to lose that game, not draw it), then they would have surpassed Australia on the table.

Posted 09:43 10th January 2013

Stokesy says...

@ jamesliveinhope - fair enough, everyone entitled to their own (or is that my :-)) opinion. I just think that the 60-40 split in both stats is just representative of home advantage and that it wouldn't make a significant difference to the result under the BPS - home teams are more likely to win and that is already a facet of the torunament that we can't get rid of (at the moment - 7 nations anyone?). Of the 8 Grand Slams to date only 2 have been won without home advantage (Wales 05, Ireland 09), and of the 13 competitions only 4 (Grand Slams or not). So on that basis why does any team turn up when they've not got home advantage.

On you 2nd point I think the line up of the home away fixtures actually benefits England. Currently when we have home advantage we compete for the benefit of that home advantage with Italy and Scotland (who have Home Advantage the same years England does). By contrast France Ireland and Wales compete for the benefits of Home Advantage when they have it. I think the fact that England have fewer Grand Slams was due to 3 bad games, one each in 2000, 2001 and 2002... and I think the only people at fault there were the teams on the field, not the scoring system used or the permutations of the fixture lists.

Posted 09:14 10th January 2013

hurricanes_m8 says...

Super rugby and Rugby Championship already use the 'most wins' before 'points difference'.

Either way, weird occurrences happen. This year, on the last weekend of the Rugby Championship I woke up to find Australia came second ahead of South Africa due to having 3 wins to S.A's 2. I laughed my head off.

This came despite S.A thumping Australia 31-8 while Australia beat S.A by 7. Although both teams had an average season most would agree Australia were worse. But no system is perfect.

Most wins I think is the best option.

Posted 01:31 10th January 2013

munster30 says...

cheers for this Planet Rugby. Thought this was a much needed article when the idea was first put out there. I think we all know that teams would play much differently if bonus points are in place but this does give some indication of what could happen!

Some really good analysis put in here too! Well done to whoever trawled through all the possible results.

Posted 23:15 09th January 2013

gauca says...

Personally leaving it under the current point system is fine, only change needing to be make is to use try count instead of points diff if tournae tied after 5 rounds, thereby rewarding more positive team but not impacting upon a grand slam priority. I wonder if using this system would have changed results in any non-grand slam year?

Also, would perhaps be good to admit via qualification the champions of Eur Nat Cup 1a into tournae each year if logistically pos and fundable. Good for Eur rugby development and profile overall and would then allow 3/3 split of home and away games too.

Posted 21:53 09th January 2013

jamesliveinhope says...

@stokesy I'm going to have to disagree with you here - 61% of games going to the home team, 60% of potential BPs going to the home team. If you're on your "away" season, what would be the point of turning up?

And don't get me started on the permutations based on the fact that France, England and Ireland hold consecutive world rankings and England will never meet both of the other teams at home in the same season (anyone wonder why England have only one a single GS since 5 became 6, even when they were world number 1).

My personal feeling, if you want to improve the rugby, hold it out of domestic season when the pitches are firmer and coaches don't lose a third of their first team the week before the first match.

Posted 21:08 09th January 2013

tacksharp says...

The bonus points system works well in the SH. Teams are rewarded for attacking rugby - even the losing bonus point rewards this - and this makes for more exciting games.

What sucks in Super Rugby is that not every team plays every team, and that you play your own country's teams more often. This means that Oz and SA have a distinct advantage over NZ teams who are much more competitive. This means they knock each other out, and don't have the advantage of being able to put massive scores on rubbish teams. It is not a level playing field.

Posted 20:50 09th January 2013

Chubbylugs says...

It's a round robin tournament of 6 teams. If it were more teams with home and away fixtures it would make sense to introduce BPs

However, the best 6n games are ones where the games are tight fought with drama. Turning it into basketball scores would kill the drama for me, whatever the Southern Hemisphere guys think.

Posted 20:03 09th January 2013

nhb99 says...

Surely the simplest solution is to adjust the points available for winning games, so that it becomes mathematically impossible for bonus points to trump 5 wins. Give 6 points per win, 3 per draw, 1 bonus point for scoring 4+ tries, and 1 bonus point for losing by 7 or less.

Simples.

At least that will reward the grand slammers, but what about the situation where 1 team wins 3, draws 1 and loses 1, and gets not bonus points? They could be overtaken by a team that wins 2 and draws 3, and gets maximum bonus points. (This is the case whether you give 2 or 3 points for the draw)

Posted 16:21 09th January 2013

daibok says...

Why cant you lot go for a bonus point system on the proviso that a grand slam automatically gets an added bonus after the last game? Say 5 points as a reward for winning all games?

Posted 15:40 09th January 2013

12Counties says...

Fair play to the writer, a very interesting summary. What might be of interest also would be outlining the position (if bonus points had been awarded) going into the final weekend of each of these tournaments. Would it have brought any additional teams into contention, thereby making the end of the competition more exciting? I'm not doing it myself, i'm just saying is all......

Posted 14:57 09th January 2013

Stokesy says...

Typo in my earlier post - the most skewed in favour of away teams was 5:7 in 2005.

Posted 14:42 09th January 2013

melkdave says...

Very interesting ,but im still only on board for bonus points for tries.If we are going to reward teams lets only do it for offenseive actions,and scoring tries..Of course the Grand Slam must take precdance,at all costs.A nyteam doing a slam are undoughted champions,even if it means allocating bonus points to achive it .

Posted 14:01 09th January 2013

Stokesy says...

@99call - I think that I addressed that point in the letter itself so if you really need an answer you'll find mine there.

@jamesliveinhope - I do have information on that - so here goes (briefly). The 9:2 ratio of bonus points is the most skewed in favour of the home team in the 13 years, with most years seeing around a 6:4 spread. The most skewed for away was 5:5 (2005). Overall bonus points awarded over the years is exactly 60:40. Interestingly over the 13 years home wins to away wins is 61:39. My opinion on the matter is that the 6N is already skewed each year by the number of home and away games each nation gets - thats in the nature of the tournament. I don't think the bonus point system would dramatically change it relative to the current situation, so am not (at least yet) convinced by the arguement that home advantage would be increased under the bonus point system.

Posted 13:56 09th January 2013

jamesliveinhope says...

Interesting observations - noted from the 2012 competition that 9 of the 11 BPs that could have been awarded were at home.

Do you stats show how that balances in previous competitions.

Posted 13:13 09th January 2013

Page 1 of 2

Character Count : 0/1900

Forthcoming Fixtures
FixtureDetails
All times are local
International Match
Sunday , May 26
England vs Barbarians13:00
More International Match fixtures
Aviva Premiership
Saturday , May 25
Leicester vs Northampton15:00
More Aviva Premiership fixtures
RaboDirect PRO12
Saturday , May 25
Ulster vs Leinster16:45
More RaboDirect PRO12 fixtures
Super Rugby
Friday , May 24
Chiefs vs Crusaders08:35
Melbourne Rebels vs Waratahs10:40
Saturday , May 25
Blues vs Brumbies08:35
Western Force vs Highlanders10:40
Southern Kings vs Cheetahs16:00
Stormers vs Reds16:05
Sharks vs Bulls18:10
More Super Rugby fixtures
Recent Results
FixtureDetails
All times are local
Heineken Cup
Saturday , May 18
Clermont Auvergne 15 - 16 ToulonClermont Auvergne vs Toulon Report
More Heineken Cup results
Super Rugby
Crusaders 23 - 3 BluesCrusaders vs Blues Report
Bulls 35 - 18 HighlandersBulls vs Highlanders Report
Waratahs 28 - 22 BrumbiesWaratahs vs Brumbies Report
Cheetahs 27 - 13 RedsCheetahs vs Reds Report
More Super Rugby results
Amlin Challenge Cup
Friday , May 17
Stade Francais 13 - 34 LeinsterStade Francais vs Leinster Report
More Amlin Challenge Cup results
Super Rugby
Hurricanes 12 - 17 ChiefsHurricanes vs Chiefs Report
Melbourne Rebels 30 - 21 StormersMelbourne Rebels vs Stormers Report
Western Force 13 - 23 SharksWestern Force vs Sharks Report
More Super Rugby results
Aviva Premiership
Sunday , May 12
Saracens 13 - 27 NorthamptonSaracens vs Northampton Report
Saturday , May 11
Leicester 33 - 16 HarlequinsLeicester vs Harlequins Report
More Aviva Premiership results
RaboDirect PRO12
Leinster 17 - 15 GlasgowLeinster vs Glasgow Report
More RaboDirect PRO12 results
Top 14
Castres 25 - 12 MontpellierCastres vs Montpellier Report
More Top 14 results
Super Rugby
Blues 36 - 32 Melbourne RebelsBlues vs Melbourne Rebels Report
Southern Kings 34 - 27 HighlandersSouthern Kings vs Highlanders Report
Waratahs 21 - 15 StormersWaratahs vs Stormers Report
More Super Rugby results
RaboDirect PRO12
Friday , May 10
Ulster 28 - 17 ScarletsUlster vs Scarlets Report
More RaboDirect PRO12 results
Top 14
Toulouse 33 - 19 Racing Metro ParisToulouse vs Racing Metro Paris Report
More Top 14 results
Super Rugby
Chiefs 22 - 21 Western ForceChiefs vs Western Force Report
Reds 32 - 17 SharksReds vs Sharks Report
Cheetahs 34 - 39 HurricanesCheetahs vs Hurricanes Report
Sunday , May 5
Brumbies 23 - 30 CrusadersBrumbies vs Crusaders Report
More Super Rugby results
Aviva Premiership
Saturday , May 4
Leicester 32 - 20 London IrishLeicester vs London Irish Report
Exeter 40 - 39 GloucesterExeter vs Gloucester Report
London Welsh 33 - 22 WorcesterLondon Welsh vs Worcester Report
More Aviva Premiership results