Don't mention the All Blacks in Dublin any time soon
This week we will mostly be concerning ourselves with the Irish (on a number of issues), a legend and an appalling attempt at fraud...
So: Ireland. It's been a storm this week over all sorts of things, seemingly with the end result that by the time the green front arrived in Hamilton on Saturday it had blown itself out. Let's see what's been going on...
First up, there was the conflict over the refereeing of last week's Test - admittedly hardly fuelled by the players. There was Irish Times columnist Liam Toland, a former Leinster player, writing lucidly over what he saw as inconsistencies in Nigel Owens' interpretations during the second Test.
Owens took considerable umbrage to this, replying on Twitter (among other replies): ""if asked for confirmation on about 5 of the points he made, he wd have the correct answer but then wouldnt have an article wd he?"
And there, you'd think, the debate would lie. And you'd be wrong.
Toland's response ran thus: "I am very disappointed in being accused of bias...The laws are open to interpretation and that is the way the assessors sitting in the stands will see it. I am not accusing him of perverting the outcome of the match."
And so the long day wore on. But we here found ourselves falling on the side of Owens on this one... Toland not being biased? He's an Irishman, writing for an Irish paper with a pro-Irish agenda. It's his job to be biased and find in favour of Ireland. And if he's not accusing him of perverting the outcome of the match, why is he writing the article about tight marginal calls in a match decided on the last kick..? Mister Toland, me thinks thou dost protest too much...
Then came coach Les Kiss on drop goals. "If you go for a drop goal and miss then why should you get the ball back from a missed kick?" he asked. "That shouldn't have been their advantage. They went through it and missed it as we were good enough to stop it."
Fair enough... but Kiss is talking from the point of view of a country that has historically made a speciality of winning from late drop goals and indeed has benefitted down the years from precisely the charge-down law that this time proved critical in their undoing. Wasn't it just a bit of what goes around comes around...?
The Irish have legitimate grounds for anger over the yellow card shown to Rob Kearney on Saturday, a decision rightly labelled 'ridiculous' by both he and Brian O'Driscoll at the time. But do the Kiwis have legitimate grounds for anger over the lack of a card in the second Test as well? Take a look at this videobefore you answer - and yes, we are taking on board that this is a Kiwi journalist on a pro-Kiwi agenda...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS_Qi586rtE&feature=plcp
Despite Ronan O'Gara's denial, Steve Hansen looks to have been spot on when he described Ireland as reaching their tour peak in the second Test. Fortunately for us all, the wars of words reached their peak just after it as well - we doubt you'll find any Irishman willing to talk rugby for a couple of weeks after the third.
Back to referees and a much more heart-warming story than nit-picking twitter exchanges came this week at the IRB Junior World Championship, where Paul Dobson was presented with a lifetime achievement award by the IRB.
Dobson officiated in his first match in 1955 as a student in Pietermaritzburg, going on to referee more than 40 first-class matches in Western Province.
One of Dobson's lasting legacies was his drive to unify the two different Referees' Societies in South Africa, representing the then different Unions. By the end of 1991, Dobson had successfully navigated the merger and the referees were the first Rugby body to achieve this, a year ahead of the Unions becoming joined.
Another is Dobson's contribution in mentoring such refereeing luminaries as Andre Watson - for whom he also wrote a biography - and Jonathan Kaplan.
"It's always nice when your own people recognise you," said Dobson after receiving the Award.
"But they didn't have to do it. Danie Craven said, 'If you love something you never have to make sacrifices', so I've never made sacrifices or felt I was serving. I loved doing it. I loved being with referees, I loved the whole business of refereeing and I've been one since 1968.
"It's the friendship of it, being part of Rugby football in a very special way. I've met marvellous people from all over the world and that's been great. I've enjoyed it enormously."
It's a merited award for a fantastic fellow. Most top-level officials and players will have come across him at one time or another, all who have will be better off for the experience.
Poor old SARU don't half get it from all angles. This week, on top of the criticism of the national team and ongoing unrest over the Southern Kings fiasco, yet another fraudster has been using the SARU name (and email domain) to rip people off.
Still, you'd have to wonder at the mentality of anybody who did fall for this particular mail...
"The South African Springboks has made considerable progress and improvement, and we would have not been able to achieve this great heights without the help and support of our fans and supporters.
"We have therefore decided to give back to our fans and supporters by introducing: GET 130% - 150% RETURN IN 5 DAYS INVESTMENT."
Right.... yeah.... delete
Loose Pass compiled by Richard Anderson
Comments
new_j4a says...
@GCP_JONES civility? This is rugby, not croquet old fellow. And where have you been hiding yourself if you are surprised at a bit of antagonism between Irishmen...at the vicarage? And do you call it civil when the supporters of a side with as much practice at losing goes after the ref with a pack of lies? There's many a thing in Ireland that I wouldn't call civil.
Posted 15:30 28th June 2012
new_j4a says...
@crunchfit, you didn't "catch me out" at all. I did watch the short segment. You will know that from my description: it is very short, involves a forearm or wrist at most over the face and there is NO evidence of the fingers anywhere near the eyes. I have watched all 3 tests over and over many times (all 9 actually), but have not gone back looking for this again. Post the minute and the test if you have it. That will save me some time and make up for your having made the original slanderous claim without having even seen the event yourself.
Posted 15:17 28th June 2012
ruggaluva says...
Hmm just thought i wld share this gem from Jerry Guscott on the possible winner of a world club competition. Has this man seen the Crusaders/Chiefs/ Bulls in full flight ?? Leinster smcheinster....
Crusaders in particular are a machine that starts slow but once it gets rumbling nothing stops its progress !
"I'm not that interested in a world club cup given the seasons are different so it wouldn't be an even contest, if we ever get to a global season then yes I would like to see a match played although not sure there would be space for it. I think the results would surprise us, imagine the Reds playing the Tigers at Welford Road in December? Certainly Leinster could compete with all the southern hemisphere had to offer. All the top French teams would fancy their chance at home against any team. Leinster would be my favourite to win."
Posted 15:13 28th June 2012
GCP_JONES says...
new_j4a....
You should never assume anything,I'm Irish,
And no you don't need permission of people to say whats on your mind, but what you do need is some civility.
But I have to say 'IF' you are Irish, its certainly one of the Strangest thing for an Irish man to say.
Posted 13:54 28th June 2012
crunchfit says...
@new_j4a
No you didn't. You specifically said you watched the 57th minute and saw it: "I watched the 57th minute and saw why". It didn't occur during or particularly near to that time. Caught in the act buddy. Better go and actually watch it this time!
Posted 13:00 28th June 2012
new_j4a says...
just to be clear....the article that is swill is Toland's in the Irish Times....NOT the PlanetRugby article which is pretty much right on the money
Posted 11:56 28th June 2012
Dan77 says...
This article is complete bull!!! The Irish media is very critical of our team when it deserves it. Our media is not paid to be biased....maybe thats how it works in Planet Rugby. I lived in NZ, and I know its definitely how it works there...
Also the article gives the impression that Irish fans are blaming the 3 losses on ref decisions and that we are a bunch of sore losers. Again, total BULL!! We accept that we lost to a vastly superior team, and we know we've got to fix it. Speaking of sore losers, I know from my time in NZ that there is also such a thing as bad winners..i.e the All Blacks
(Sorry about all the swipes at NZ...for the most part I love the place)
Posted 10:51 28th June 2012
new_j4a says...
@GCP_JONES, It is a rugby match. But there are a bunch of ignorant whingers on here and elsewhere attacking the competency and integrity of one of the top refs....and they are just wrong in their understanding of rugby. Thanks I have a life. It includes watching rugby and admiring good sportsmanship....not a lot to be seen in some of these postings. One last point, I am an Irishman and i don't need permission from the Welsh to tell it like it is....this article is swill slopped up before ignorant swine.
Posted 10:17 28th June 2012
GCP_JONES says...
new_j4a.....
WOW there,back up the truck, "Irish Swill for Irish Swine", I have only noticed you posting recently, but can you please explain the need to include statements like that.
Its a rugby match, no one died, go out and get a life.
Posted 10:02 28th June 2012
new_j4a says...
@crunchfit, I did see the arm across the face video from which your rather clever but distorted still photo was taken. Look at the other matches? I had to dig around to find it. If you still can't find it, post here and I will find it again and post a reference
Posted 08:47 28th June 2012
new_j4a says...
Toland on the scrum in the 74th minute: "Four minutes later with the score 19-19, Ireland are in the All Blacks¿ half with a put in. The initial hit is good but under immense pressure, sub tighthead Ben Franks drops his bind and Owens, standing right in front of the action, calls a reset; why no penalty? Considering the previous scrums where Ireland had totally demolished the All Blacks the next few moments are bizarre." Firstly Toland is WRONG when he says this "Ireland are in the All Blacks¿ half with a put in" Weepu has the put in! And the ball never goes in: the scrum is never steady enough and then both the AB tight head and the Irish loose head angle in and the scrum collapses BEFORE the put in!!! So why does Toland expect a penalty? Well its simple really. Ireland needs a penalty to win. Toland is Irish. So in spite of NOT being a qualified ref and in spite of being a very long way from the action and obviously having a fairly loose acquaintance with the Laws of the game....he calls Owens a cheat. What a prat!
Toland says..."On the reset in the 75th minute, ....blah, blah,blah and lots of smoke......It is criminal that Owens¿ interpretation is ¿not a straight wheel, you are running it around¿." If anyone out there does NOT think that the Irish 8 has broken his bind before the scrum is 45 deg AND IS WHEELING THE SCRUM then you are both blind and biased and probably don't know the Laws.
I think I'm going to stand by my first statement: Irish Swill for Irish Swine. You pathetic eejits are worse than the french.
Posted 23:58 27th June 2012
new_j4a says...
Toland 2: "On 47 minutes and 27 seconds, Sexton, on the Kiwi 10-metre line wraps around, Leinster style, to offload to the powerful Brian O¿Driscoll on a hard line into Carter. The All Black outhalf swing-tackles him to the deck and while remaining in contact, swings back to his feet, failing to disengage. The subsequent recycle takes 10 seconds " Carter doesn't contest the ball and the ball is slowed down by 2 Irish players who go off their feet to seal it off. This is completely different from "On 59 minutes and 19 seconds, Tony Woodcock picks from a Ben Franks breakdown and heads dangerously close to the Irish line. Seán O¿Brien initially bumps him before Woodcock hits the deck. In that movement, O¿Brien detaches from contact and re-engages over the ball and forces the steal." The eye gouging Irish blind sider GOES OFF HIS FEET AND COMES UP WITH THE BALL!!!! That's what Owens tells him and it is EXACTLY what the video shows. Owens is absolutely right.
Posted 23:08 27th June 2012
new_j4a says...
Toland 2: "On 39 minutes and 22 seconds, Cian Healy ...etc....l. Beyond the drive, McFadden goes to ground but with no material effect on the ball or the All Black ability to contest the ball. Owens pings McFadden, declaring ¿off your feet¿."
Well this is just a lie by Toland. Owens pings 2 players McFadden AND green 4. Owens clearly says "Off you feet" to McFadden AND "He is rolling over the ball as well" to the lock. Both players are not supporting their weight on their feet and they are sealing off the ball....legitimate penalty. Toland doesn't give the times for the supposed 12 counter examples ....why would he? Easier just to slander and move on.
Posted 22:48 27th June 2012
new_j4a says...
@curates_egg, here's the first:
Toland 1: "On 20 minutes Kiwi blindside Adam Thomson carries into Brian O¿Driscoll, with the exceptionally intelligent Rory Best buttressing him as Richie McCaw supports Thomson. They hit the deck and Best, believing he is part of the tackle, stands up and contests the ball. Owens pings him, stating ¿You¿re still on your feet, you¿re not the tackler, then you have to go back around¿. Best might argue but that appears fair; 3-10.
Best doesn't hit the deck...always on his feet therefore not the tackler. Owens is EXACTLY right! Best and Toland don't know the Law. However Owens did miss the high tackle on Carter 30 seconds earlier by Irish player in scrum cap and no number. Do you perhaps think that Owens is favoring the weak NH side?
Posted 22:12 27th June 2012
crunchfit says...
@new_j4a
Actually, I think I made a mistake. The incident doesn't seem to have happened in the 57th minute (I've just watched the match for the first time today). There wasn't even a maul during that period. It's strange how you claim to have seen it though...
Anyway, I was just pointing out another similar incident while PR was making the point about bias, etc.
Posted 21:03 27th June 2012
new_j4a says...
@curates_egg You say..." Lets start with Toland's analysis - assuming you have read it (which I doubt) - on which points was it wrong?" I have read it. He is wrong on almost every point. Read the comments from SA Steve in the Irish Times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0618/1224318139461.html
That ought to get you started...or just watch the video with Toland's commentary in your hand....but of course you were not objective the first time you watched, so why would you be the second time? Not sure, but may be worth a try?
If you want to take the points one by one, I am happy to do it, but I think that you are pretty fixed in your opinion that this is all Nigel Owens' fault? It may be kinder to leave you with your delusions?
Posted 18:59 27th June 2012
Ramage says...
@curates egg Kiss is an Australian surely you know that.
Alan Lewis was dropped from the International panel because he was so far behind play in his last few tests and so unfit he was becoming an embarrassment. So he was mercifully dropped and he promptly retired.
Posted 12:56 27th June 2012
startledwombat says...
There's some good constructive comments on the Irish Times web site under Toland's reply and critique of Nigel Owens's comments.
I am wondering if Mr Toland will comment on the footage that Murray Deaker had broadcast on NZ TV (the PR link). I do hope so, for on seeing that I begin to lose respect for a very good Irish team.
Posted 12:49 27th June 2012
curates_egg says...
@new_j4a wow there sailor - those in glass houses and all that...
How about you play the ball and not the man. Lets start with Toland's analysis - assuming you have read it (which I doubt) - on which points was it wrong? It was a technical analysis of IRB law interpretations, so it is hard to understand arguments of bias (and Toland is not biased - unlike other Irish correspondents).
As for Owens utter lack of professionalism, that is indeed my opinion - isn't that what every post on this thread is: an opinion?
As I said, play the ball and not the man - it makes any post (of which all are opinions) slightly more credible.
Posted 11:34 27th June 2012
BODsGODmisspelt says...
I was quite suprised to read Toland's article, he usually is unbiased. In fact far more unbiased than other Irish sports journalists (namely Thornley, donkey Farrelly and Ward). I find his articles are usually extremely informative, to the point and unbiased.
This article (Toland's) was a swipe and of course there is always going to be an element of bias when any Irish man/woman is writing about any Irish sporting failure, it's impossible not to.
Referee's decisions are made in a split second and they can't be overturned except in the exceptional circumstances. If they start to be overturned they would lose all authority on the pitch and the game would turn into a farce like football, with players gathering around the ref for every bloody decision and waving imaginary cards.
I wish people would stop moaning about referees decisions, just leave it. It's not going to be overturned, it can't possibly make a difference when the game is over and if anything its going to make refs like Owens harder on Ireland in the future.
Posted 10:51 27th June 2012