We got into an argument here at PR about this a while ago. Not much came of it, as there were things like Lions tours to concentrate on.
But with the Tri-Nations done and dusted and the November Tests and Heineken Cup still some time away, we figured we'd throw this debate open to the public: What has been the greatest international XV since 1995, the year when it was not only the grass that was tainted with green in the world of rugby.
A great XV from the past ten years. Think of the choices! Do you pick Carter or Wilkinson? Hayman or De Villiers? Gregan or Van der Westhuizen?
We are willing to bet that not a single one of you will agree with us on the results of those - and other - choices in the side, but here it is - think back to some of these players and enjoy!
15 Christian Cullen (New Zealand) - Nobody has yet mastered the art of surreptitiously slipping into an attacking line and then tearing out of it for a score like the former Hurricane and Munsterman. Unbelievable pace was hidden in this long and languid stride that left you gaping every time.
14 Doug Howlett (New Zealand) - The record Super 14 try-scorer, New Zealand's record try-scorer... that's the kind of guy you want on the wing
13 Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland) - Europe's rugby statesman finally added the Heineken Cup and a Grand Slam to an already-impressive list of achievements last season. Good enough to re-invent his game after age sapped his pace, he has become one of the all-round greatest ever.
12 Tana Umaga (New Zealand) - Ironic, considering his partner is the man who accused Umaga of crocking him out of a Lions series with a spear tackle. But it's the same Umaga who rushed to Colin Charvis' aid when the latter had been knocked out on New Zealand turf, and who once famously responded to a refereeing call of heavy no-arm tackling: "we're not playing tiddlywinks here mate!"
11 Rupeni Caucaunibuca (Fiji) - How can you leave out Jonah and Bryan Habana, never mind Shane Williams or even Christophe Dominici!? But the Fijian with the flawed temperament did things on a rugby field that nobody else will probably ever do. Just put his name into You Tube and watch.
10 Dan Carter (New Zealand) - a three-way tie between Carter, Wilkinson and Stephen Larkham if we were honest. But the team needed a goal-kicker as well as a playmaker, so Carter's total points were just higher than the other two. The greatest ever?
9 Gus Pichot (Argentina) - Again, how do you leave out Gregan, who has the most Test caps of any player, or the scintillating Joost? But Pichot brought qualities to scrum-half play, so often in adversity and so often with the extra responsibility of leadership through the adversity, that neither of the others had. We always wonder what his talents would have done for a team like New Zealand, but his rugby is so responsible for Argentina's accession to senior Test status that we'd not have it any other way.
8 Lawrence Dallaglio (England) - Another close-run thing, with Sergio Parisse snapping at Dallaglio's heels, but the Italian's blotted disciplinary copybook - we know Lol is no angel, but he never gouged - saw him relegated to second. And let's face it, would you not like to go into battle with Dallaglio on your side?
7 (openside) Richie McCaw (New Zealand) - Undoubtedly the greatest exponent of openside play there has been. George Smith deserves a mention, and maybe Heinrich Brussow will eclipse McCaw in a few years, but until then the All Black captain is in a class of his own.
6 Richard Hill (England) - The most unsung of all English rugby heroes, but he'd have it no other way. If you didn't see him much, it was he was forever at the bottom of the ruck, putting limb and digit where others feared to put but many trod...
5 Martin Johnson (England) - The biggest, darkest and most brooding of the driving forces behind England's World Cup win. We reckon the moment when he hoisted Bill was the first time he had smiled on a rugby pitch! Now bringing that menace to England's national team, Johnno takes the captain's armband in this team as well.
4 John Eales (Australia) - This one will have Saffers everywhere raging; how can we leave out Victor and Bakkies? Because Johnno's meaner than Bakkies, and because Victor was not nicknamed 'Nobody' as Eales was (because Nobody's perfect), despite his obvious talents. We felt Eales offered perhaps just a little more grunt. We're now running for cover...
3 Carl Hayman (New Zealand) - This one was much easier. Hayman has been peerless at tighthead for some time now - New Zealand still miss him.
2 John Smit (South Africa) - Has now won every honour going in the game except for the Super 14. We know he plays tighthead now, but for a solid anchor in the scrum, an extra dose of leadership and some pinpoint line-out throwing, Smit's the man - just edging out Rafa Ibaņez.
1 Rodrigo Roncero (Argentina) - The Argentine beefcake was so close to being our player of the 2007 Rugby World Cup after a series of stellar performances. Discipline remains an issue, but you'd be hard-pushed to find a number one in the world who has contributed so much so regularly to his team's loose play.
Comments
BradMoran says...
My team is based on what these players accomplished in the "Professional Era" hence the exclusions of legends who didn't play a prominent role in this era such as Sean Fitzpatrick, Michael Jones, Zinzan Brooke, David Campese, Jeremy Guscott and what not.
1. Os du Randt. Runners-Up: Jason Leonard & Tony Woodcock
2. Keith Wood. Runners-Up: John Smit & Raphael Ibanez
3. Carl Hayman. Runners-Up: No one comes close.
4. Martin Johnson. Runners-Up: Bakkies Botha & Fabien Pelous
5. John Eales. Runners-Up: Victor Matfield & Paul O'Connell
6. Richard Hill. Runners-Up: Owen Finegan & Jerry Collins
7. Richie McCaw. Runners-Up: Josh Kronfeld & Neil Back
8. George Smith. Runners-Up: Lawrence Dallaglio & Colin Charvis
9. Fourie du Preez. Runners-Up: George Gregan & Joost van der Westhuizen
10. Dan Carter. Runners-Up: Jonny Wilkinson & Andrew Mehrtens
11. Rupeni Caucaunibuca* Runners-Up: Jonah Lomu & Bryan Habana
12. Tim Horan. Runners-Up: Tana Umaga & Matt Giteau
13. Brian O'Driscoll. Runners-Up: Matthew Burke & Stirling Mortlock
14. Doug Howlett. Runners-Up: Jeff Wilson & Joe Roff
15. Christian Cullen. Runners-Up: Chris Latham & Jason Robinson
*Lack of discipline and health problems got in his way of reaching his full potential, but easily the best winger I've ever seen play.
Please tell me what you think of the line-up.
Posted 10:54 16th November 2009
10corbinC says...
15. Cullen
14. Howlett
13. O'Driscoll
12. Umaga
11. Lomu
10. Martin Hernandez
9. Marshall
8. Parisse
7. McCaw
6. Collins
5. Eales
4. Johnson
3. Hayman
2. Smit
1. Leonard
Posted 09:32 16th October 2009
gdm8 says...
1. O. Du Randt 1.
2. S. Fitzpatrick
3. C. Hayman 3.
4. J. Eales 4.
5. M. Johnson 5.
6. P. Spies
7. R. McCaw
8. Z. Brooke
9. J. Van der Westhuizen
10. D. Carter
11. J. Lomu
12. T.Horan
13.J. Guscott
14.J. Wilson
15. C. Cullen
Posted 12:17 13th October 2009
piru says...
Caucau played like 6 tests, yeah he was good, but do you want someone unreliable and flighty, or the best winger of all time in Jonah Lomu?
You guys are nuts
Posted 08:11 12th October 2009
DuncanB says...
Jerry Collins? come on guys. I think youv been fooled like all blacks coaches consistently have been by the fact hes just huge....he nowhere hill. In fact watch him be schooled by croft and Moody at the weekend, his mention anywere in this list is a joke
Posted 12:02 09th October 2009
kuzurebi says...
comments from georgia.
1. a. sheridan (just ask australians)
2. k. wood (without doubt)
3. c. Heiman
4.c. jack (for his playing abilities)
5. v. matfield
6. j.collins (r. hill was perfect, but collins had more power)
7. r. Mckow (any questions?)
8. t. kefu (little bit better then others)
9. j. westhoizen
10. d. carter (ris is in the middle of wilkinson and larkhem)
11. j. lomu (when I was a kid firstly I heard about lomu and then about rugby.)
12. t. umaga (also little bit better then t. horan)
13.S. mortlok
14. r. caucaunibuka (he was a left wing but why not)
15. c. cullen
Posted 08:01 07th October 2009
Springbok says...
This list is a farce
Posted 03:37 04th October 2009
Solitude says...
I'm a bit late coming to the party. I quite like the choices in the article. My only change would be to bring in Os du Randt.
I think it was mentioned in one of the comments and I have to agree; Dan Carter must be the best professional player to date. I won't leave him out of any "best ever" team.
Posted 16:49 02nd October 2009
bradstock23 says...
You can always spot the Safa's posting on these comments!! Seem to be consistently surprised when any SA rugby player isn't acclaimed the best ever.
To say that Johnson and Hill were only good for two or three seasons is an amazing statement. And Johnson walks all over Botha! Still i do think Joost should be in at scrum half and that a way could be made to fit Johnson and Matfield in together! Players that good could work it out! Dallaghio was a great player but maybe Brooke offered more. Very tight decision though.
Don't know enough about the argy prop to comment on him but Du Randt may deserve that spot out of the people i've seen.
So swap those few around, convince either Jonno or Matfield to play 4, and i agree on the whole. Caucau for me had it on his day so going on talent and outrageous ability he would be in, however if you were actually picking as a coach and wanted a safer option then Lomu would be your man.
People calling for Gregan must be having a laugh as all he was is a deluxe Peter Stringer. Offered very little as a threat around the base of the scrum and i think i can count on one hand the times i saw him make a break. Du Preez and Phillips (if he keeps going) will also be up there challenging for the sh berth one day.
Posted 11:29 01st October 2009
brazilrugger says...
i am surprised there no players form Georgia, very disappointing
Posted 16:14 30th September 2009
bluelion says...
cjmboot: There's no mistaking you're a Kiwi. I don't think anyone implied a DK was Zinzan's finest moment. It is an example of a player displaying talents beyond the norm for his position. That freakish skill and confidence that separates the world class from the true greats. A prop that side steps, A second row with a pin point clearing kick, an 80kg half back with a knock-out tackle. That turn in a game that makes it exciting.
The greats are those who are arguably the best at their position AND display ingenuity, other talents, passion, leadership, energy, strength.
A no.8 with a 40m DG in a WC semi. Its great moment that happens to be delivered by a great player.
And let's be clear, the more we can big-up ZB the quicker Lol gets vanished. So get on board.
Posted 15:29 30th September 2009
willems says...
None of the above mentioned New Zealand players deserve a spot in this squad. World Cups are what rugby are all about and all of them cracked under pressure on the big stage. How can you be the "greatest" if you perform in only certain competitions. Seems like they can't make the step up to REAL rugby.
Posted 15:00 30th September 2009
boks19952007 says...
The southern hemisphere has dominated rugby in the pro era and therefor should hold the majority of possitions on this list. O'Driscoll and Johnson are probally the only two standouts from the North that are worth a mention. I know that sounds cocky, but the Northern guys have done nothing on the international scene other than England for a couple of years. Even then, they fell apart horribly once they got their job done. O'Driscoll has stood the test of time and is still arguably one of the best centers around, but even Johnson and compatriots from the all conquering England team where only good for two maybe three seasons. My world 15 would be picked from guys that where not only the best in their position as some point, but those that stayed near the top for an extended period. If you take that into account, I can genuinly only think of O'Driscoll from the North. I think PR should maybe have spent a bit more time thinking about this one before blurting out this team. It's close, but by no means the best.
Du Randt 94-2007 HAS to be there. Two world cups as well???
Posted 10:35 30th September 2009
cjmboot says...
I think this is a reasonable selection. Am particularly pleased with selections of Caucau (as the article says he did things that no other could, including Lomu), Hill and Johnson (the real reasons England won the world cup, I have yet to see a player be as influential in any position as Johnson was in that season), and by the way I am a Kiwi.
I would have gone for Joost at halfback (I think the greatest of all time), and not sure about Dallaglio. He was a great player but Brooke in many ways re-defined the position (by the way, I don't think his finest moment was the drop kick, people who think that obviously know nothing about the game). I would also go for Horan over Umaga, his hands were terrible. And yes, I really am a Kiwi.
Posted 09:55 30th September 2009
dougM says...
Cannot believe some of these! The following do not deserve to be there: Doug Howlett, Tana Umaga, Rupeni Caucaunibuca, Gus Pichot, Lawrence Dallaglio, Richard Hill, Rodrigo Roncero. And these are the obvious ones! Over and above these there are still 1 or 2 which are a close call.
Posted 09:49 30th September 2009
mixedup says...
Smit; Johnson; Eales; Pichot; Teichman were all legends of the game because they were able to lift all those around them to greatness, but as pure players they were good... very good but not the greatest.
If you take away goal kicking, captaincy and combinations and focus only on the position and the role, the list changes. For me, I would decide based on those who had no weaknesses, who did their role 100% and who then still had a touch of the magic about them. Those players who could dominate their opposition, could do something freakish, could conjure up something out of nothing and who could change the way other teams play against them just because of how good they were. My team would be:
1. O. Du Randt
2. S. Fitzpatrick
3. C. Hayman
4. V. Matfield
5. B. Botha
6. R. Hill
7. R. McCaw
8. Z. Brooke
9. F. du Preez
10. D. Carter
11. R. Caucaunibuca
12. F. Bunce
13. B. O'Driscoll
14. C. Heymans
15. C. Cullen
Posted 09:29 30th September 2009
jmanngod says...
they are all good players - you could make a case for any of them. You could make a case for others as well. I'm aware this is all post 1995... Obviously Fitzpatrick was a better ..everything than Smit - But Smit has had longer in the pro era so probably deserves the nod. Ditto Dallaglio vs... well almost any other #8.
A good list - Lomu over Caucau though. Caucau is freakishly good - but really...better than Lomu? That's the only change I'd insist on.
Posted 07:27 30th September 2009
Shannon says...
You know, we could have a commit flying straight at planet earth and the Poms would prefer to
discuss the greatest tricks of Harry Potter. For the love of everything grown up ... could all her
majesty's subjects please join us outside the helium chamber.
Posted 03:06 30th September 2009
Rhino says...
Can I make a point that seems to have been a little forgotten in the excitment, if you have John Eales in the pack, you don't need a goal kicking fly half (or goal kicking back at all). That is the difference between "Nobody" Eales and the Botha/Matfield combo (although if you were voting for the best combinations of the professional era that would be very difficult to beat).
I think this really needs to go to a position by position poll.
Come on PR lets have a proper voting pole! Once and for all lets settle this!
Posted 01:33 30th September 2009
tuco says...
pichot ????? joost, marshall, gregan, howley... the list goes on and on... and roncero ????? du randt !!! you're choosing these all cause they got into the tri-nations... agree with sanzarian, an all time low for the site... and for the guys that want bakkies.. come on! he'd be nothing with that giant south african pack helping him (spies, smith, bismarck etc)... CHABAL IS JUST MARKETING... i know no one has talked about him i just wanted to say it
Posted 22:41 29th September 2009