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Comments
melkdave says...
Quick post on Japan ,lets not forget that in 2019 they will be hosting the RWC Just how would it look if their team was full of NZ/Aus ect players .I think this is the reason we are starting to see more Japanese players developed for the national side .Also i can understand why the NZRFU proposal was defeated .It would help the pacific island counties only but they are teir 1 countries anyway really .It wouldnt help other tier2 countries at all as they have no or very very few aging stars playing for other countries .In fact the only one that springs to mind is YASVILLE who is Georgain by birth but plays for France
Posted 15:36 21st May 2012
tha_mai says...
cuw3100 - and it's me again; I follow Asian rugby, one big change since RWC for Japan has been that they now have just one overseas-born player in their squad, he's from NZ but moved there as a schoolboy 8yrs ago so not the typical 'pro rugby import' of the past. Kirwan was criticised for relying too much on overseas players, maybe this is their union's directive to the new coach. Long-term has to be good for development there.
Posted 09:13 21st May 2012
tha_mai says...
cuw3100 - the IRB have looked at this issue and clearly ruled it out in 2010. "Dead in the water"
Of all the IRB countries only Australia and England supported New Zealand in getting the criteria changed:
28.10.2010
Any hopes for All Blacks of Pacific descent rounding out their international careers with the country of their heritage are dead in the water.
The New Zealand Rugby Union's long campaign to have eligibility rules changed to allow players to give back to the Pacific Islands once their All Blacks careers were over was roundly dismissed at a full IRB council meeting in Dublin on Tuesday.
The NZRU's proposed regulation offered players with "close and meaningful ties" to another country the chance to represent that nation at test level after a stand-down period.
"Unfortunately that was resoundingly defeated," NZRU chief executive Steve Tew said after arriving in a snow-swept Cardiff. "Almost everybody voted against. We didn't get as much support as we did last time and I'm not sure if Fiji drawing with Wales last weekend helped the cause.
"That's probably the end of that for a few years I'd say which is disappointing. We proposed a few variations to try and smooth it through, but there was not the support."
New Zealand's bid got only the expected support of Australia and, surprisingly, England, who Tew said were keen to help Pacific Island rugby.
Posted 09:08 21st May 2012
cuw3100 says...
maybe IRB needs to look at the situation of the country when deciding on these issues. Like tha_mai says..." said a second tier nation and a small one at that could benefit from having very good players who became ineligible due to being capped by NZ or OZ. On the other hand NZ and OZ have enough talent not to miss one or two or more guys who can play for the Islands. Similarly, Scotland would have benefited with a good player who though eligible for Wales may not feature much due tot he available talent pool.
The Island nations have suffered a lot due to many of their players taking up the option to play for ABs in the past (which is within all LAWS of course). However if IRB allowed players to go back to the smaller nations and represent them, given they will not play again for ABs , rugby would be the winner.
For example look at a guy like Sivivatu who will not play again for ABs, but would be a good player for Fiji. Check out some of the many Island players who having been selected for ABs never really had long careers with NZ but also could not play for a smaller nation due tot he LAWS!!! At least one way traffic should be allowed from tier one to tier two, which will make such countries more competitive.
Also of late quite a few players have gone to smaller nations and made them a little better , like the NZ born guys in team Italy&Japan, at the RWC. somehow their presence made it a contest, which otherwise would have been a one way trip.
"
Posted 04:33 21st May 2012
melkdave says...
@Rockman
Cant remember who both where but IIRC one of them was Ruddock??
Also about B.Barrit did he ever play against another countrys A or test team ,if not then he wouldnt have been deemed to have played international rugby .That is most probily what has happened here
Posted 22:51 18th May 2012
tha_mai says...
rockman - re Brad Barritt
well, that's a good one; seems he was 'fast-tracked' maybe there is an exemption that applied (obviously one Shingler didn't know about)
found a few other current players who would not be eligible under the rules as they stand right now:
Daniel Vickerman - SA U-21, test for Oz
Radike Samo - Fiji U-19, Oz
Isaac Boss - NZ U-19, Ireland
Matt Stevens - SA U-19, England
the catch has to be is what team was a country's second team, you can see from these examples U-19, U-21 and currently we have U-20 World Championships each year. Emerging Springboks - maybe U-20 is the SA second team.
Classic IRB stuff isn't it, nice and clear with no room for misinterpretation.
Only a few weeks back a PR article on Edinburgh signing 'ex-All Black' Ben Atiga - he played less than five 5 minutes for NZ and may never have touched the ball, but those minutes made him ineligible to ever play for Samoa where his parents were born. That's the rules . . .
Posted 12:22 18th May 2012
melkdave says...
Please let me qualify the present situation in regards to the U20s .Playing for your countries U20s doesnt tie you to only playing for that country in anyway or for any country .Say your NZ born but of samoan ancestry you are 19 and are picked for the Samoan U20s .The following year you could play for the NZ U20s ,and playing for either wouldnt tie you to those countries ,You could move to europe and 3 years later play international rugby for that european country .Which would tie you as it would be a full international match either elite or A team. S.Shingler was deemed to have played a full international match as at the time Wales U20s and France U20s where their countries 2nd designated teams or A teams thats why the IRB ruled as they did .As ive posted its the 1st and only time thats ever happened and due to the commitees report the only time it will ever happen .As they said themselves U20s matches should never be classed as internationals to tie players and its unfortunate that this situation occured .The IRB are now looking at amending regulation 8 so it never happens again .U20s matches are age group matches only and usually are not considered internationals,this was hopefully a one off never to be repeated
Posted 11:48 18th May 2012
rockman says...
@Melkdave you said 'managed to change alliangiance to Ireland' who are they?
Every one seems to have missed the most recent case that defies the IRB's ruling. Brad Barritt played for South Africa U21 and the Emerging Springboks (South Africas A team) but then went to England and got capped. This is one rule for one country and another for England. His English link is that his parents are Zimbabwean, therefore have UK passports. Zimbabwean? And this lets him play for England? This for me is way too far a stretch to allow him to play for England. I really think this should not be allowed happen and that the residency rule should only apply to the lower tier nations, say eleventh and lower. Nearly 52 million people in England, get some home grown talent.
Posted 09:57 18th May 2012
tha_mai says...
plaasboy - old rules; same for Riki Flutey - NZ U-19 went on to play for England, Lions. Current rules apply to Shingler.
Michtymauler - not again, that old whine. If you followed rugby you might have noted 15 of the Samoa RWC team were NZ-born, but 100% entitled to play for Samoa through parent/grandparent. Goes both ways. If you can find a player in recent years who has gone on to play for ABs after representing another country's 'A' team or Under 20s as current laws require, go ahead and name him. AFAIK the last one would be Joeli Vidiri who played twice (one start, one sub) for NZ in 1998 having earlier represented Fiji, but at that time he was able to meet the 3yr residency requirement which applied at the time - doesn't now.
Posted 02:49 18th May 2012
ShamanSheep says...
@ Michtymauler
'While it's good to add humour to subjects, you have to bear in mind a young talented lad has been shafted by beauracracy and his aspirations to play international class rugby have been quashed by a bunch of moustachioed blazer wearing idiots!! ;-)' - The guy was playing the system to get an early call up -
1. he was told before the game that if he played against france he was tied, he played
2. he was considered a talent at U20 level but left the Scarlets because he got more money at LI and didn't want to be behind Stephen Jones and Rhys Priestland - given Llanelli's proven recent record of developing players, including his brother (even for England - Ben Morgan), this was a pretty stupid decision
3. Why did he suddenly decide he was Scottish? - the last 2 years of his career are a classic case of trying to go too fast to the top without any thoughts for loyalty, now he's ostracised himself from Wales and is trying to develop his rugby in a suffocating league for backplay
Posted 16:27 17th May 2012
Jmehrtens says...
@Celtictenor
It is not for Wales to decide to let Schingler go.
Neither did Wales protest against his selection make him inelegible to play for Scotland.
It is the strange rule that can cause players to be "caught" by a country with possibly nobody knowing.
It leads to strange situations: Should the U20 Welsh coach select his best three props for a U20 RWC when they state that they are willing to play for U20 but not if that make them ineleglible for any other country. In other words if thy meet France ( or any other U20 doubling up as their nations A team) in the knock out stages he will be short of props.
Posted 16:06 17th May 2012
munkian says...
Faletau has lived here since he was 13 and sounds more Newportonian than me....
Posted 10:34 17th May 2012
Michtymauler says...
@Headhunter99
While it's good to add humour to subjects, you have to bear in mind a young talented lad has been shafted by beauracracy and his aspirations to play international class rugby have been quashed by a bunch of moustachioed blazer wearing idiots!! ;-)
Posted 00:02 17th May 2012
melkdave says...
Ufortunatly as many posters have said there is no mechanism for a country to release a player ,once you are deemed to have played international rugby like Shingler its set in stone .Also has been pointed out all his other U20s caps dont /didnt make him a welsh player.Just that one match WalesU20s -France U20s was enough .Despite his refusal to sign a contract of commitment to the WRU.How many young players i wonder would refuse to play in a showcase tourament for their age group ,which enabled him to secure a proffesional contract for 1st team rugby at London Irish and on his form there an offer of elite international rugby with Scotland.I have posted for years that Wales lack of an A team stunts their player development..The year before year 2 former welsh U20s managed to change alliangiance to Ireland .,because of ancestry qualifications and they hadnt played a represenative international match as per regulation 8 Citing lasck of a chamce to play international rugby now they where over 20.It was their success which made the WRU determined to stop S.Shingler .They where very lucky that France just happened to designate their U20s that year.Otherwise S.Shingler would now be a Scotland player
Posted 21:15 16th May 2012
jontheref says...
I feel for the guy, but he was told he would be tied, and still went on the field.
As to Wales being cynical and playing his brother to bolster their case, it would demean Aaron, he was in the squad, and played out of position, and played very well. He was in on merit, look at his Scarlets HC games, the try he scored from his own half.
No conspiracy here.
Posted 20:03 16th May 2012
Michtymauler says...
I wonder if it would've been the same result had it been the case of Aus or NZ wanting to play and islander?!!
I don't know if he would've been Scotland's greatest player but he certainly would've been given a great opportunity and an opportunity in one of the smallest player pools of 6N countries..
"Captured" certainly seems the correct word to use... Almost makes it sound in the whole circumstances of the "I didn't sign a contract" to be illegal!!
Posted 18:28 16th May 2012
Headhunter99 says...
Should've got the paper work right, classic case of Shinglers List...
Posted 14:29 16th May 2012
lawynd says...
"...Shingler was deemed to have been captured by Wales..." Captured indeed. What a complete farce.
Posted 13:13 16th May 2012
Celtictenor says...
Having won their point, it would be some kind of natural justice for the WRU to be "a very forgiving organisation" (to quote Michtymauler), and let Shingler go. As I have previously said, I simply wouldn't want anyone playing for Wales who wasn't committed 'calon ac ysbrd gyda'r hwyl' to the Welsh nation (the Kiwi-taffs of a few years ago certainly showed that they were properly so committed, good for them). Shingler appeared (to me anyway) to be playing the system, without showing any such commitment.
I agree also with Michtymauler about Aaron Shingler - his future is going to be interesting .......
Posted 12:58 16th May 2012
Bones7 says...
It is a silly decision. Maybe the IRB should implement a stand-down period for Shingler of a year or so.
Posted 12:46 16th May 2012