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kybone - those posts are designed to bate the English and not meant to offer any worthwhile criticism. By reacting to those posts, we just encourage more of it. Maybe the posts on their own country pages are rather dull and its more fun to come on to ours and poke fun at us.
What I'd really like to know, and debate with anyone English who gives a damn, is what we do about our back line. I think we've been seriously lacking in flair for a good few years now and I think it'll be tough for an attack coach to change the 'crash bang kick' mentality. Will Greenwood struck me as one of the few back line players we've had in recent times who could produce something unexpected and so I thought he might be useful contributing to the coaching set up. Not as a backs defence coach - Farrell is ok for that. But there's a view that former players don't work out as coaches. Kind of odd, that, I reckon since almost all current coaches were at one point, players. As for our scrum, we are in very good shape in my view. We went to SA and with alot of good players out, replaced by young guys, we did pretty well.
But we really need some back line flair to be able to put up a better showing against the SH nations. That's my view, for what it's worth.
Posted 20:44 03rd July 2012
whizz52- You're right Englands future was bright a decade ago then i think they got through the development stage when they won the WC.
I don't get why all the SH posters on here are getting so annoyed. Basically Booth has said that in his opinion England are heading in the right direction. He hasn't done a Scotland and suggested that we plan to be world and european champs by 2015. We know we're not as good as NZ but we're not that far behind anyone else bearing in mind that home advantage counts for a lot in SA.
Some of the sheer arrogance from some of the SH posters is spectacular! Pointing out winning ratios, how much better they are at club and international level, and basically banging on about how rubbish England are. Then in the next breath they're labelling the English arrogant over some fairly innocuous comments about a mild improvement in our team.
Posted 18:28 03rd July 2012
Some of the frothing-at-the-mouth anti-English ranters on here need to take a chill pill or stop the drugs.
At what point did Booth say they were "potential world champions"? Has anyone said that?
All he said was, in his opinion, the side is improving. That seems entirely clear - from 40-10 drubbings at home to SA, to narrow losses and a draw. That is improvement - from a very low start point.
Get a life, people.
Posted 17:54 28th June 2012
@Englandforme I was at that match at Old Trafford where England did a victory lap . They had in fact lost to the All Blacks so I suggest you check your facts .
Posted 12:43 28th June 2012
I thought this was supposed to be a post about the positives from the tour and not another tired old anti England tirade. Surely it is fair to point out some positives ?
For me, (feel like I've said this ad nauseam already) there are positives but they're all about the scrum. We had several young inexperienced players in the team but they performed with credit against a very good Bok scrum (despite what kiwilad says about their lacking in intensity) away in South Africa.
Where we fall down is the back line and this is nothing new. We've had a lack of creativity in our back line for years and years.
If we could put out our first choice scrum and ally that to a talented, creative back line, then I believe we could perform much better than we do against the SH nations.
But then the question arises, why can't we produce talented back line players ? The welsh often do and so do the French. So why can't we ?
Posted 12:30 28th June 2012
Attherfish, Englandfor me, Any of the SH teams you struggle to beat, would be hanging their heads in shame over not winning a test on that tour, not only did England fail to win a test, they are once again crowing about a draw.
The Bokke had the series won, lacked intesity and desire, and you lucked a draw, and the future is bright???
Interesting that you claim the Lap of Honour was to thank the crowd, I was in a bar full of Englishmen on that occasion, and you would have thought Eng had just won a RWC.
I know that victorys over the ABs are rare for English supporters (20% win rate?) but if a draw is somethinh to celebrate, the future is far from bright..
Posted 11:23 28th June 2012
@ flyman - they were thanking the crowd for making the effort of coming out in support. It was never a victory lap and, obviously, couldn't be - there was no victory!
@ Melkiwi - it hasn't been bright and we've been in the doldrums (although we did get to the RWC final!). MJ's era was awful too. But now, there's a real sense that things are on the up. SL is picking young lads on form and potential, rather than reputation and experience. That excites me.
@ heart_of_oak - don't get me wrong, I'm never happy with a loss. But I'm a little more circumspect than others, perhaps. I belive that once the match is over you have to review it and learn from it. And part of that learning is understanding how bitter defeat tastes and not wanting that taste again. But Booth isn't daft and he's focusing on the positives. And why not? Light at the end of the tunnel, especially after the RWC 2011? I think so.
Posted 10:54 28th June 2012
Sandal, over the years I've seen some pretty unpleasant stuff aimed at England and its supporters. It isn't all one way traffic. There is a significant amount of posting by non English posters which is designed to bait rather than to provide any balanced criticism.
But to return to the thread, I agree with alot of the posts which are basically saying that we, England, have alot of players and should be able to field teams that can beat the SH teams. My take on this is that our league does not value adventurous or creative play as much as it does 'solid defence'. Therefore, while we always produce a great scrum, we rarely have great back line players.
Right now, there are some mitigating circumstances for losing 2 out of 3 tests in SA. The new coach, young inexperienced players, a spate of injuries but this doesn't explain why the scrum has performed creditably while the back line is at best, mediocre.
Posted 10:00 28th June 2012
This thred is taking a nasty turn.
Yes, some of the SH people here have been a bit ungracious, but I doubt they are simply being anti-English. They are probably just tired of hearing the north talk about how well it is doing. The rugby community in the south wouldn't tolerate such blather about its teams.
In the case of England, I am surprised so many of their fans are pleased. Rebuild or not, England are better resourced than anyone. Conversely, in the south, people might acknowledge that this England team does not have a lot of international experience.
What annoys me most, however, is the arrogance of some fans here -- not rugby arrogance but cultural arrogance.
EnglandForMe and jameslivesinhope, you taunt southerners with the old chestnuts of the chip on the shoulder and the inferiority complex. If I wanted to encounter such an ungrounded/outdated/unpleasant/risible superiority attitude I would go to the Guardian's rugby blog and not this one. Perhaps, EnglandForMe and jameslivesinhope, you would feel more at home there, where you will find plenty of people eager to jump on Johnnie Foreigner whenever he dares to offer a view deemed unflattering to Britain.
You should get your facts right before you challenge others to do so. The game in question most certainly did not end in a draw.
Posted 07:09 28th June 2012
@EnglandForMe I hope so. OZ, SA and sometimes France are the only countries where by the all blacks aren't certain to win. I hope England, Wales and even Ireland pick things up and make it more competitive
Posted 00:24 28th June 2012
There is one problem, and one problem only. Your Clubs are full of Foreigners. Scour the Super 15 teams (with exception of Rebels cause the Aussies had no depth for a 5th team) and you will find barr a player or two in SA and AUS and NONE in NZ - no imports - NONE. There are some World Class Players in many of the Northern Club sides, who do not come from the country of that club. Just look at the next batch off the line for NZ now... Why can't England, with MORE rugby players than NZ produce these players? Too many spots taken at the top Club Level by foreigners. That is the development issue right there.
Tell me this, you all rave on how good some of these Northen Clubs are, and how you reckon they would compete with the Reds or Crusaders, or even beat them. Take all the imports out, how good would they REALLY be? Sad how many times over the past few years the Player of the English Premiership has been a kiwi. Very Sad.
Posted 20:58 27th June 2012
APV1, you're almost always right but this time I'm siding with those who are fed up with our progress. But I'll be more specific. I think in the scrum we are ok. We had key players missing but still put up a good fight with other guys. I reckon we could lose almost all of our first choice scrum players and still put out a scrum that can hold its own against almost any pack from any country.
Where we fall down is the back line. We offer little or no creativity. Why the hell not ? The welsh can find and bring on great back line players. Why can't we ?
In particular, we have a problem with the inside centre position and I think this is in large measure down to our league. We have to encourage creative players much much more than we do particularly in the inside centre position. It's no good putting Manu in this position - he's a battering ram and that's how we should use him, kind of like Jamie Roberts.
What we need, I reckon, is to find several new Will Greenwoods. Oh and maybe to change the points system so that a try is with 50 points. Seriously though, all that you say about positives, our 'young side', injuries, new coach etc etc., it's all fair but the positives are all about the scrum. In terms of the back line, I hate to say this being English and loving my country, but.... we're crap and there's been b*gger all progress since 2003 !
Posted 16:32 27th June 2012
The NH test sides are happy with a draw or a loss where they matched in certain areas because the standard of rugby player in the North is not as good as the South. It's not a dig it's just fact that can be backed up by results and I.R.B.standings over the years.
Toby Booth has every right to be happy because a 3-0 loss would have been no surprise.
Posted 16:16 27th June 2012
@bokbevok - England future bright, um I guess if a draw against a team only assemble for two weeks is cause for optimism then you will need a miracle for a bright future.
Two weeks and about three times the amount of caps so the time scale is largely irrelevant. In the case of the half backs and mid-field for most of the series it was many, many times more caps. Considering where England are currently I'm quite happy that a midfield that most of the time had less than 20 caps between them (the exception being when Flood was on the field who has 50) were never outplayed by their opposite numbers who had a combined total of about 150. They'll learn and gain confidence from this which is basically what Booth is saying in the article. I think he's right.
Posted 15:02 27th June 2012
@Melkiwi - Futures been bright since 03 according to England. When are they gonna stop talking about re building and actually start winning
Autumn 2012, count on it.
Posted 14:53 27th June 2012
@flyman - Perhaps you could cast your mind back a few years to when England
were walloped in a test and did a victory lap after the game.
Really wish you idiots would get this right too if you're going to use it to beat the English with. England were not walloped, it was a 26 all draw with the All Blacks and the lap was not a victory lap but one to thank the crowd for coming to the first international held outside Twickers since about 1910.
It's all quite well documented if you'd care to actually look for it. Wouldn't quite sit so well with the chip on your shoulder though would it?
Posted 14:52 27th June 2012
@flyman - glad you brought the lap of honour thing up, a much misunderstood piece of history (England's first foray outside of Twickenham and a thanks to the Northern crowd for their support)
Mind you, history repeating and all that. Seem to recall that was when England had a new coach who was building the nucleus of a new young team. Seem to remember that ended quite well.
Posted 14:51 27th June 2012
Felt compelled to register just to say what an ungracious bunch they seem to be from down South. Determined to put the boot in just because it's the English. There are some sad people around here.
........ So is the fire at the end of a horrible car crash!
This sort of comment is wrong on so many levels. Do you really consider there is ever the need for comparison between a sporting event and a genuine tragedy?
Your brain's not wired right.
Posted 14:47 27th June 2012
well at least we've got depth at fullback. Goode looked like a class act on debut and considering the disrupted chopping and changing of the game he played extremely well, think maybe he should get a start as he probably shaded Brown's performance in the 1st test.
I think the 2nd row is a bit of an issue still, although Parling and Lawes could make nice pairing, with some dog from Parling and athleticism from Courtney.
I feel the thing that sets NZ apart from all other sides in terms of their attacking ability (except perhaps for France) is the handling and attacking ability of their forwards. They can execute 3 on 2's and produce quality passes that put the quick guys into space to finish off moves. Often when I see England putting together a move (not all tht often admittedly) we have a forward making a break who isn't going to finish anything off, but when you've got Mealamu or Read drawing and passing to put Dagg through a gap, the liklehood of finishing off is much greater.
A more coherent English attacking vision needs to take this into account, using forwards more intelligently as runners and just having greater depth and pace from the target runners hitting the gainline
Posted 13:56 27th June 2012
Futures been bright since 03 according to England. When are they gonna stop talking about re building and actually start winning
Posted 13:52 27th June 2012
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