Waiting game: European Rugby
European Rugby Cup Limited (ERC) is set to study two alternative proposals tabled by the PRO12 and a combined English and French club effort.
This comes a step forward in the saga following two fruitless meetings and a recent controversial one where Premiership Rugby were not invited.
English and French clubs have tabled a 20-team tournament while the PRO12 proposal is for a 32-team campaign, which the ERC will now assess.
It's expected the results of the evaluation will be presented at the meeting of ERC stakeholders, which is to be held in London on December 12.
The formerly mentioned proposal would mean all teams would need to qualify on merit so as to remove the guaranteed places for outfits in the PRO12. Meanwhile, the latter idea would be for the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup to be replaced with one big competition, which the French snubbed. Premiership Rugby and their French counterparts don't like that idea as it would leave the bottom two clubs in their league without European rugby.
"This evaluation will examine the rationale for the proposed changes to both tournaments, as well as the impact on all stakeholders of any change to the format and structure of the competitions," the ERC said in a statement.
Comments
rugby_rockstar says...
Damn right Dange. Harlequins are looking good this year, so what changed? Nothing except quins won a trophy last year and now have self-belief to go with the celtic adventurous director of rugby. All the pap about unfair adavantages has been blown out the water BY AN ENGLISH CLUB THATS PLAYING GOOD RUGBY!!!!! maybe the other 11 clubs ought to get off their fat asses and actualy look at the shoddy product their are churning out. they don't deserve to win the eurocup playing drivel like that. As a rugby fan I hate battery farn rugby. if we got down PRL's route then rugby loses. Quins are a diamond in a pile of excrement.
Posted 14:16 20th November 2012
The_Dange says...
Think the 32 teams is a mad idea. Current format works.
Posted 22:16 08th November 2012
APV1 says...
@ HenryFitz - "PRL and LNR's contribution to the development and spread of professional rugby is, by contrast, close to 0." Because it's not their job. In contrast, the RFU have made huge in-roads into the development of rugby, both natuionally and internationally.
And stop being mean about Bath.
Posted 13:28 05th November 2012
melkdave says...
HenryFitz
Again whats this about losing top players ??For your infomation more english players have gone to french clubs than all the Pro12 nations combined ,and no irish what so ever.Yet the AP is a much more exciting league and is producing atm more and ,alot better games to watch as well.You also fail to grasp that the HC debate isnt about money ,its about making the HC the competion it should be and is advertised as by the ERC itself .A competion between the best clubs in europe ,how do you decide which clubs are the best ,why on merit of course ,othwise it isnt a competion between the best clubs at all.As i posted earlier here the AMLIN is the competion to develop rugby in europe ,and if the proposal was to extend the AMLIN to 32 teams id be all for it .Also your cliaming theres no injustices in the Pro12 LOLOL.Well theres the vast disparity in budgets for a star tbetween the irish IRFU funded clubs and the rest, and the contining policy of giving Connaught half of what the others are gettingTheres the IRFU policy of forcing /asking talanted players to play for either Leinster or Munster ,thus robbing Connaught and Ulster Then theres the rubbish about resting players,when in fact wheather they are english,french,welsh ,scottish,italian or irish ,they all play about the same amount of games per season .Really please at least do just a litle reaserch about the subject ,as i have.Taking away the HC qualification battles in the AP ,T14 ect takes away something for fans to get excited about ,and as ive said dead rubber games,That fans wont want to go to,,and thus AP teams ect will start losing income
Posted 18:24 04th November 2012
HenryFitz says...
melkdave,
Losing more top players to the EP and Top14 will not make the Pro12 a more attractive league to watch or make it more financially successful. Worse players = lower crowds, lower sponsorship, lower tv audiences and ultimately less money, which will lead to even worse players and so on in a cycle of never-ending decline. A salary cap is not enforceable across jurisdictions, not practical and not of financial benefit. Talk your anomic capitalist nonsense to someone else.
Who's whining about injustice other than wretches like Mark McCafferty and your fine self? You want more money? Fine. You'll get your 31%, like you wanted. But don't pretend that the PRL, comprising a bunch of bankrupts and loss-makers, is in any position to lecture other countries on how they run their domestic competitions. And nor are you, frankly, for reasons of having a severely limited and partial imagination.
Go back to talking to yourself. I am finished with you.
Posted 15:23 04th November 2012
melkdave says...
@HenryFitz
Am i dreaming or wasnt it you who said ,the reason why scottish clubs wont qualify is their financial weakness,compard to the irish??.I offer a serious proposal to remady that ,and you shoot it down ,because god forbid any irish club has to compete on a fair footing in the Pro12.You also come up with this rubbish about french clubs taking the best players .Arnt all the elite irish players centrally contracted to the IRFU then ,and earn about the same as they would earn at a french club??.Ihate to tell you this but the answer is yes they are and do .Also France is bring in quotas from next year to stop their clubs becomming totally forgien ,and to safeguard the prospects of the national team.Just once i would like a irish poster to not ponfiticate and whine about precived injustices ,while they themselves are commiting the same in the Pro12 .The 32 club proposal is rubbish ,and would harm the viabilty of the AP and T14 ,while making the Pro12 completely irrevalent ,every match would be totally without reward or consequences .Given that just why would fans go to watch any Pro12 game at all.God its like smashing your head against a brick wall having to explain simply things to posters ,who just dont thinkThe 32 team propsal wont pass ,also as the french have already rejected it ,at that ever so secret meeting they had with no english paticipation at all no RFU or PRL .One thing is for sure if the celtic nations dont start taking the situation seriously ,the english and french clubs will go post 2014
Posted 03:43 04th November 2012
HenryFitz says...
melkdave,
Ah, those moving goalposts. Rumour has it that the EP is such a tough league and a hard league to win because every game matters and everyone can beat everyone else, which makes it hard for clubs to rest players when they're fighting off the omnipresent threat of relegation. Now you tell me it's all down to reduced ERC qualification. (The Top14 clubs, by the way, do not give 2 faecal stubs about ERC qualification, top 6 is a league playoff spot for them). As it happens, top 6 in the premiership are almost guaranteed to be playoff contenders, which is why they put their effort in until the end of the season, while places 7-10 are usually not very good and battling hard against the nemesis and possible disaster of relegation to the championship for a year. They'll still have that relegation monkey to worry about, no?
As far as your laughable and cretinously transparent attempt to turn the Pro12 argument of outside interference on its head, it's about as stupid a ruse as I've come across and is both wholly false and wholly imaginary. In the 32 team proposal, England gets 10 spots in the H Cup, and it's entirely up to you how you choose to fill them. You can enter Old Wanktonians or the Honourable Arseradishes for all we care. That's completely your affair. Just as it is Wales' affair how they fill 3, Ireland's affair how they fill 3, and so on.
Your Pro12 salary cap proposals are similarly gauche and ill-considered. I don't see any reason why Celtic regions should make it easier for French clubs to take away our best players, or why a Union-run league should effectively ban central contracting. That would be farcically self-destructive. Only a fool or an ideologue would consider that a good idea.
Posted 14:04 03rd November 2012
melkdave says...
@HenryFitz
Then the solution to scottish and italian clubs weaknesses is obvious then .Have a cap on the Pro12 clubs just like the AP of say £4 million or even £5 million same as AP ,that takes away the irish clubs advantage as far as budgets are concerned .Put your own house in order 1st before trying to undermine the AP and T14 with this rubbish 32 team proposal which would make dead rubber matches in the AP where atm it has none.Stop trying to turn them into annother unviable and irrevealent Pro12 league.,make the Pro12 an equal footing league asfar as budgets ,make it revalent to the clubs and fans with no dead rubber games ,and above al make it viable financialy
Posted 11:51 03rd November 2012
HenryFitz says...
melkdave,
"The 32 team proposal is a non starter ,for various reasons ,the main one being it would totally undermine and destroy the AP,T14,and Pro12 leagues."
This is absolute horse manure, asserted without evidence or rationale. Do you even understand the proposal? 32 teams, same number of matches per club, same number of knockout games. The English and French clubs get more money, it's more difficult to qualify for the QFs, there are a few more mismatches and Bath will get lots of tonkings, but it's basically the same EUROPEAN tournament, with teams from all of EUROPE's professional rugby nations. What's not to like? Are you so wedded to your might is right argument that you can't see the virtues of an equitable compromise?
By the way, it's not condescending to think that teams from Italy and Scotland who are at a significant financial disadvantage when compared to the Irish and even some of the Welsh teams, would struggle to qualify from the Pro12, if only 6 qualifiers were allowed. It's just a basic economic likelihood. But rather than punish them for having low budgets, the rest of the Celtic unions want to support them and help them to develop viable professional clubs in their countries, which was the whole point of the Celtic league in the first place. PRL and LNR's contribution to the development and spread of professional rugby is, by contrast, close to 0.
An additional benefit of the 32 team proposal is that there are more spaces in the Amlin for clubs from developing rugby nations. And did I mention that Bath will get creamed, repeatedly?
Posted 15:47 02nd November 2012
melkdave says...
@HenryFitz
The 32 team proposal is a non starter ,for various reasons ,the main one being it would totally undermine and destroy the AP,T14,and Pro12 leagues.The english , french and welsh clubs main income comes from those leagues,without that income many would be in dire financial straits and probibly close.They arnt owned and funded by their unions like the irish,scottish and italian clubs you know .That also by the way rather safegaurds rugby in those countries as no union is going to want less than 2 clubs suppying players for the national team as a minium .Just on player numbers alone..The best way to expand rugby in europe is though the AMLIN ,and have the HC for the big elte clubs only .If the celtic proposal was to extend the AMLIN to 32 teams id be all for it .Though i suspect the french would have resavations ,about the amount of games .But that would depend on the number of groups and how many teams per group so its workable (i think).So a 32 team AMLIN would have 6 english ,6 Pro12 ,and 8 french clubs with 12 clubs from the teir 2 countries like Romania ,Russia,Spain,Portugal ect maybe their D1 champions only with any unallocated spaces going to the italian top 10,Scotish BT premier and welsh principality premiership .Now that would hopefully extend interest in rugby in europe in general and in Italy and Scotland and reignite it in ,Wales .I also think its a litle condersending to think that scottish or italian clubs couldnt qualify on merit for the HCEdinburgh did reach the SFs last year ,while Glasgow made the Pro12 playoffs ,so they could qualify if they made the effort,and Treviso i think came 8th last year just 4 points or so short of 6th placed teams total so also have a chance,espically this year as they seem to have improved again.
Posted 14:50 02nd November 2012
rugby_rockstar says...
Hey you know what would be a good compromise between the two would be don't you? THE CURRENT FORMAT!!!! Good grief. Has anyone actually not enjoyed this years european cup??? Its brilliant! Leave it alone.
Posted 09:27 02nd November 2012
The_Dange says...
@Froggy73
Ireland have 4 this season as they had the winner last year. Thus, in a regular season Ireland have 3, and in a season where they have the winner the year before they have a fourth. It's not rocket science. And Ulster is a province combining 6 counties in the North and 3 in the Republic so that's another little bit of nonsense from you.
Posted 23:34 01st November 2012
HenryFitz says...
As usual, the only people in the negotiations offering a compromise are the Celtic and Italian Unions, with their 32 team proposal. A proposal which achieves the dual objectives of increasing the Top 14 and EP league's relative representation and their share of the dosh to 31.25% (a division virtually identical to their proposed 6+6+6 split), while not condemning professional rugby in Scotland and Italy to probable collapse. There's also the added bonus that Bath would be taking 50-point drubbings in the main competition - results which couldn't but increase the general gaiety.
The PRL and LNR Entente's proposals, in contrast, are just the regular bullying and blackmail, restated. They'd rather set Europe aflame than compromise on their greedy demands for preferment and lucre. And all the useful idiots supporting them here or pouring scorn on the only equitable compromise proposal are displaying the same arrogant sense of entitlement and infantile envy. Also the same short-termism and selfish anomie. God-damn babies. You'd rather see rugby wither in Scotland and Italy than admit of compromise.
Posted 20:33 01st November 2012
Rosbif says...
@Toulousain, following your logic, given geography, we could see 7 french super-clubs, changing the T14 to T7 in the flick of a switch....
Paris (Stade + Racing)
Clermont (+Grenoble)
Toulouse (+Agen)
Toulon (+Montpellier)
Biarritz (+Bayonne)
Perpignan (+Castres)
Bordeaux (+Mont de Marsan)
I guess teams like Brive, Lyon, La Rochelle etc from Pro2 could also join to makeit T10? But no more than 10, so we don't play too many games.
Then we make a rule and say max 2 non-French qualified players in starting XVs.
The Toulon army disbands.
The SH teams get a lot of their players back for the struggling S15 franchises (if they want them?).
France win RWC 2019... surely it will be our turn one day?!?!?!
Posted 20:18 01st November 2012
Toulousain says...
@Norm. thanks for the considered post. i was worried my dreamland scenario of french "regions" was going to meet with bemusement, or worse, hostility. i agree, my scenario will never happen. the french clubs are too old and established (and rich) to ever want to merge. they have all the power in our country. the national team and PSA's requirements come a very distant second.
still, funny to imagine how powerful those regions would be in the HCup. especially if they were playing in a league of 12, with spanish, russian and romanian sides they could warm-up against, with no threat of relegation....
i paint this picture deliberately, to make the point about how the french view the 3 big irish provinces and ospreys. not because it would ever happen!!
funny example though.... :-)
Posted 15:45 01st November 2012
APV1 says...
@ Rosbif - you're welcome!
You don't have to be a genius to work this one out. We want everyone to play pan-European rugby, we want the competition to be merti-based, not a quota, we want to develop European club rugby, and we want the leagues to be competitive. So here we go again:
Top 6 from AP, Pro12 and T14.
= 18 teams.
+ previous Amlin and previous HC winner.
= 20 teams.
(If previous Amlin and / or HC winners are already included, their league gets to add the 7th and, if necessary, 8th placed team in)
4 pools of 5, top 2 from each going through to the knock-out stages (remember how the RWC pools work? Same idea.).
All 18 others into Amlin.
Add in Bucharest Wolves & Bizkaia
= 20 teams. 4 pools of 5 again.
Fair all round. All based on merit. Everyone gets European Cup Rugby. Development of teams. All leagues become competitive.
Jobs a goodun.
Posted 15:00 01st November 2012
Norm says...
@ Toulousian
In model yes you paint a correct comparison, but in the real world where we have a combined playing and supporting population in the Pro12 playing countries smaller than that of either France or England, the argument doesnt stand up as comparable. And the aim here is surely to grow that playing and supporting population. This has already worked in Ireland with a massive influx at underage level to the game over the last 15 years. proof positive it works. It is a more difficult task in Italy but does that mean we dont try? Looking at Scotland and the dire straits of its football leagues I think rugby can grow.
You simply cannot compare the French and English domestic game with the smaller unions at various stages of development. yes the Irish more than anyone may have benefit from the fact that week in week out they may play Zebre whereas Toulouse may play Clermont, but Leinster still meet Munster, cardiff Ulster in that season so not as many of the games are dead rubbers as you seem to think. That aside the pro12 is not ideal but it doesnt have the luxury of such unrivalled public support as the Top 14 or the PRL. It is also much much younger than those leagues, so while I accept that there may be a benefit to leinster, Ulster Munster under the current set up, so should you accept that cutting Italian and Scottish representation from the European cup is bad for the development of the game in general and therefore dont throw the baby out with the bath water.
Also remember, that cutting the number of teams to 20 would mean more money for the aforementioned 3 Irish provinces just as it would for French and English clubs, yet rather than follow the myopic mercenary path of Mark McCafferty they remain in support of the model which develops the Celtic and Italian game in general, the pro12 brought Italian clubs in from the cold, who next Romania, Spain RU?
Posted 14:25 01st November 2012
Rosbif says...
@APV1.... I'm afraid your proposal is....how can I put it?.....rather mediocre...??!!??!!
@Toulousain.... I like your sense of humour. Crazily unrealistic proposal, yes, but would be fun to imagine....
Posted 14:10 01st November 2012
APV1 says...
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I think that just about covers it.
Posted 11:49 01st November 2012
melkdave says...
@Choc8thunda
That proposal of yours will never happen ,as it would totally destroy the AP T14 and Pro12 leagues.As i pointed out in an earlier post on this thread,thats fine for clubs from Ireland .Scotland ,and Italy ,they are all funded by their unions.But for english,french,and welsh clubs it would be a disaster,as their incomes come friom their league games,80% in english and french cases .So they just wont accept that idea its a total non starter.The whole celtic 32 team proposal imo is a non starter aswell as it doesnt solve any of the precived problems /questions tabled by french and english clubs,and makes the present Pro12 league even more irrevalent and less viable than it is now ..Cant see Wales wanting to totally wreck the Pro12 ,as their clubs income depends on it ,unless they are going to be owned by the WRU,as treams are in Ireland,Scotland and Italy.and i just cant see the WRU being prepard to do that ,atm.
Posted 09:10 01st November 2012