Waiting game: European Rugby
European Rugby Cup Limited (ERC) is set to study two alternative proposals tabled by the PRO12 and a combined English and French club effort.
This comes a step forward in the saga following two fruitless meetings and a recent controversial one where Premiership Rugby were not invited.
English and French clubs have tabled a 20-team tournament while the PRO12 proposal is for a 32-team campaign, which the ERC will now assess.
It's expected the results of the evaluation will be presented at the meeting of ERC stakeholders, which is to be held in London on December 12.
The formerly mentioned proposal would mean all teams would need to qualify on merit so as to remove the guaranteed places for outfits in the PRO12. Meanwhile, the latter idea would be for the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup to be replaced with one big competition, which the French snubbed. Premiership Rugby and their French counterparts don't like that idea as it would leave the bottom two clubs in their league without European rugby.
"This evaluation will examine the rationale for the proposed changes to both tournaments, as well as the impact on all stakeholders of any change to the format and structure of the competitions," the ERC said in a statement.
Comments
froggy73 says...
@Ken - thank you :-)
@The_Dange: "Ireland have three places in a normal season": all right, then can you explain to me why last year and this year we have Connacht, Munster, Leinster and Ulster. I am counting 4. Or do you count off Ulster as they belong to the UK ;-) ?
Posted 08:15 01st November 2012
Toulousain says...
well said @froggy73. it seems the french argument has been totally forgotten in this new proposal of 32 teams. indeed, the french press are calling it a "provocation" not a proposal.
pls imagine the following.
Clermont merges with Grenoble to form "Central" region
Toulon merges with Montpellier and Perpignan to form "South"
Toulouse merge with Biarritz, Agen, Castres etc to form "West"
Stade and Racing merge to form "North"
These four "regions" make a league with 3 teams each from Spain and Romania and 2 from Portugal. So 12 teams in all. We call it the BNPParibas12. No relegation or promotion. Automatic qualification for everyone in HCup.
Sound familiar, anyone?
Do you think any of the four French regions would struggle in their league fixtures against Spanish, Portuguese or Romanian sides?
Do you not think a French region would win the HCup EVERY SINGLE YEAR FOR EVER AND EVER until the other nations complained?
But what could possibly be the grounds of the other nations' complaints?
The French regions would merely say they were encouraging development of the game in Iberia and Romania. How dare those other nations complain, just because they are losing!
(Meanwhile, T14 and Pro2 merge to form vibrant, 2nd tier domestic league, with academy sides of the super-regions, not too dissimilar to ITM).
How good would the France national team be then, with fresh players able to attend training camps and actually practice together more than 2 days before a test match??? RWC champs in perpetuity!!!!
Sorry for the long post - but we should all dream a little from time to time :-)
Posted 07:29 01st November 2012
Andrewinkorea says...
Froggy, you're missing the point too. The situation in France means you can rest close to a full XV and replace them with another XV laden with internationals. What exactly is good about that, from everyone else persepective? Clermont and Toulon can operate 2 teams in two competitions given their money and resources, but when the IRFU welfare program is used, people moan.
Also, givemn there are concerns about too many fixtures and the impact on player welfare, what is wrong with the IRFU stance? So much hypocrisy from members of the media.
Posted 06:09 01st November 2012
chocol8thunda says...
Just make one single euro league. 4 divisions, 32 teams. Like a super 15 but bigger and better. Each div made up of teams from the different unions. Now the unions don't have to worry about players being released for test duty or players seeking lucrative deals in France etc. Make for better viewing, make better players.
Posted 03:54 01st November 2012
Tombomb says...
Top five from the t14 and aviva domestic leagues top 8 from the pro12(international league) plus winner of the previous hcup and amlin this would solve everybody's problems whit the current format because it would take away the acused resting in the pro12 and proably improve the pro12 in the process. A reduction in the teams from 24 to 20 will improve the the hcup also
Posted 01:33 01st November 2012
The_Dange says...
@Froggy73 Anyone who thinks Munster and Leinster are training all year in the pro12 is simply delusional. They are up at the top every year. They are consistently the top two Irish teams and that is why they qualify, as Ireland have three places in a normal season. Your point is nonsense.
Posted 01:14 01st November 2012
Dannyboy says...
No matter how it changes, the same teams from the Pro 12 are going to go through. And the same teams from France, and the same from England.
All that will change is that Zebre from Italy wont get a free pass (which aids their development).
And when the changes occur, and if the French and English are still losing, they will have another excuse, and demand some other changes.
English Bullys and French cowards.
Plus ça change, plus c¿est la même chose.
Posted 00:13 01st November 2012
HenryFitz says...
The 32 team proposal, as I understand it, is 10 Rabo (with places assigned as they are now) 10 AP and 10 Top14, plus 1 HC winner and 1 new Amlin comp winner. There would be 8 pools of 4, with only 1 qualifier per pool. Though the aggregate number of matches would increase, the number of matches per club would remain the same. What form the new Amlin competition would take is anybody's guess, though it does raise the possibility of a subsidised expansion into Georgia, Portugal and the like. At a guess, it would probably be a 16 team competition, with the 4 group winners playing the 4 best runners-up from the H Cup in the knockout.
Posted 22:35 31st October 2012
rugbybutten says...
How many times in this debate has the term "world's best club competition" been used?....Well if it's that good..leave the bloody thing alone.
Posted 18:54 31st October 2012
dunks says...
youknowit says...
connacht are better than most english premiership sides. as are treviso. your living in a dreamland. the premiership is the worst league in europe
Have many games have connacht and treviso won against english and french teams since the Hc started ???
Posted 18:36 31st October 2012
crunchfit says...
Other websites seem to suggest that there more ideas being discussed then the two mentioned in this article.
Posted 18:25 31st October 2012
Kent says...
@froggy73 - the word your'e looking for is "unrealistic"
Detention for you my French friend
Posted 18:05 31st October 2012
ste490 says...
@irishzimbabwean. Sounds good enough to work. Earn your right to be in the worlds best club competition. It's fair, it ensures that teams have to make sure they qualify and not just rely on a freebie entry, and it gives a bit of integrity to the competition.
Posted 17:39 31st October 2012
Rosbif says...
32 teams of which 12 from Rabo. Nice. So everyone qualifies! (which kind of avoids the whole issue the English and French clubs have with having to fight fresh Celtic teams that view their league as a training run). How soon before the Rabo is then disbanded, in favour of, well (how should we put it?) non-televised, non-sponsored training runs for academy players in front of a few mums (to make the teas) and dads (to do the driving to and from the grounds)?
Posted 17:18 31st October 2012
Speartackle says...
@Irishzimbabwean
4 groups, each of six teams would make alot of useless games at the end of the qualify rounds (example: one team in sixth position play with one in fourth or fifth. It would be pointless and without any appeal at all).
The beuty of this contest is the actual, wonderful formula. Every game, every bonus point can make the difference. That's the thing that make the HCup the most intriguing competition in the world.
So, you can discuss about the team's partecipation fond on merit or not. But, PLEASE, don't change the format.
6 groups of 4 each. That's the best for sure!
Posted 15:46 31st October 2012
froggy73 says...
Irishzimbabwean, I agree 3x8 is a good although a group of 6 would make more games (4 more) and I know the French (with already 26 games to play in the Top14) don't have any more space available in their calendar.
Posted 14:59 31st October 2012
Irishzimbabwean says...
ste490 - see any problem with the top 8 teams from each of the Top 14, Premiership and Celtic League going through to the Heineken Cup each year? Seems fair to me - if the Top Scottish or Italian teams cannot make the Top 8, then they have a full season the next year to concentrate on making Top 8 with no distractions!
Also Heineken Cup should be 4 groups of 6 with the Top 4 teams from each group going forward to knockout stages.
All leagues should keep playing through all International weekends thus ensuring that the teams have depth and are utilising their younger talents.
Any thoughts?
Posted 14:14 31st October 2012
youknowit says...
connacht are better than most english premiership sides. as are treviso. your living in a dreamland. the premiership is the worst league in europe
Posted 13:46 31st October 2012
youknowit says...
connacht are better
Posted 13:45 31st October 2012
froggy73 says...
@papachinzo: you missed the point. The problem is not that Zebre, Connacht, etc are in it. The problem is that everyone in the Pro12 are in it. What is fair about having Montpellier or Bath having to fight all year to get their spot while Leinster and Munster can train in the Pro12 all year and therefore be fully prepared to give their best shot in the HEC ?
Posted 13:25 31st October 2012