Former champs: Tigers & Toulouse
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With the Heineken Cup looming large on the horizon, we take a closer look at each group. Next up, Pool Two.
TOULOUSE
Coach: Guy Noves
Captain: Thierry Dusautoir
Best finish: Winners 1996, 2003, 2005, 2010
Key signing: Yoann Huget
Player to watch: Edwin Maka
Pool odds: 4/5
LEICESTER
Director of rugby: Richard Cockerill
Captain: Geordan Murphy
Best finish: Winners in 2001 & 2002
Key signing: Vereniki Goneva
Player to watch: George Ford
Pool odds: 2/1
OSPREYS
Coach: Steve Tandy
Captain: Alun-Wyn Jones
Best finish: Quarter-finals in 2008, 2009 & 2010
Key signing: Jonathan Spratt
Player to watch: Justin Tipuric
Pool odds: 4/1
TREVISO
Coach: Franco Smith
Captain: Corniel Van Zyl
Best finish: Pool stages
Key signing: Doppies La Grange
Player to watch: Tommaso Benvenuti
Pool odds:: 100/1
How we see it: Never was the title "Pool of Death" a more apt title as multiple former European champions Leicester and Toulouse are joined by Pro12 champions Ospreys and giant slayers Treviso. Indeed, no one is guarented victory over Itay's best side, who have beaten Ospreys once already this year. Considering their track record in recent years, Toulouse are rightfully the bookies favourites to top the group although last year's upset loss in Edinburgh suggests they are no longer an unstoppable force. Tigers will be smarting from a disappointing campaign last term (they failed to advance from the pool stages) but have such a strong first-choice team they must still been seen as candidates for the title if they are spared injuries in key positions. Ospreys do not have a great record in Europe and after a shaky start to their Pro12 title defence, one wonders if they may have to choose where their priorities lie.
Key fixture(s) in Pool: Leicester visit Toulouse this weekend in a game that could set the tone for the rest of pool stage. The return fixture at Welford Road is the final game of the group and could be the decider. Leicester will probably need to win at the Liberty Stadium if they hope to top the group.
Prediction: 1 Toulouse 2 Leicester 3 Ospreys 4 Treviso
Fixtures:
12 Oct: Ospreys v Treviso
14 Oct: Toulouse v Tigers
20 Oct: Treviso v Toulouse
21 Oct: Tigers v Ospreys
8 Dec: Toulouse v Ospreys
8 Dec: Tigers v Treviso
15 Dec: Ospreys v Toulouse
15 Dec: Treviso v Tigers
11/12/13 Jan: Ospreys v Tigers
11/12/13 Jan: Toulouse v Treviso
18/19/20 Jan: Treviso v Ospreys
18/19/20 Jan: Tigers v Toulouse
Comments
makemehappy says...
lawynd - great so you can't provide any evidence to support your claim. I've used the common-sense argument and highlighted the thoughts of other other clubs. Not looking too good for you is it LOL!
I haven't changed my argument, I've highlighted the issue that some clubs ensure their players earn more than others. That is why Leicester have had such a strong squad for years. Well done for getting away with it, and well done for having a strong squad, but don't pretend there isn't a reason and that internationals flock to the midlands due to the weather, the lovely accents, and the pretty scenery. Money talks!!
You seem (foolishly) to believe that absolute proof is required. It isn't. Opinions are allowed on these boards, but some idiots believe they aren't.
You really couldn't work out what I was indicating regarding the internationals, which is very sad. I thought you might have some intellect and be able to think a little outside the box. So to enlighten you - some internationals cost more than others!! Yes they do!! So to have had (albeit previously) 6/7 international front row players, from major rugby playing countries, plus good back up, would clearly cost a lot of money. Alone that would have taken up a million pound.
You could of course argue that that wouldn't be the case. Of course I'd agree and point out that you might as well add Dan Carter to your squad. He'd only cost about 250 per week. So get a life and get real.
You can have your opinion, but you need to remove your head from your butt if you think others can't have theirs. I note that you haven't apologised for being so rude. Says a lot about you. There endeth the lesson, now move on please.
Posted 18:27 15th October 2012
lawynd says...
Oh really, and what 'things' do Leicester offer their players, above and beyond the salary cap? I like how you've now moved from 'ignoring' the salary cap, to Leicester using 'loopholes' against the 'spirit' of the salary cap. Even if that was the case, then aren't all other teams free to use the same exceptions to pay their players more?
The beauty is of course that I don't have to 'prove' anything - you're the one calling the management of Leicester into question, so the onus is on you to prove your conspiracy theories, not the other way around. So please, do enlighten this 'plonker' (if you're going to bandy about insults then I suggest you learn how to take them, too) and everyone else here if you have some sort of smoking gun to which nobody else except the Leicester hierarchy is privy?
Oh, and your initial post was, "Are you seriously suggesting that any English team can contain over 20 internationals in its squad?" I merely illustrated that several other teams have the same or similar amounts of internationals in their team...if of course that wasn't what you meant (like you didn't mean that Leicester 'ignore' the salary cap), then please do feel free to correct yourself!
Posted 15:38 15th October 2012
makemehappy says...
Also - just to make you apologise, are you serious about comparing Worcester and Wasps? Have a think - you'll work out why if you've a brain!
Posted 13:33 15th October 2012
makemehappy says...
@lawynd - you really are a pathetic little man aren't you. Now please stop being so rude. It is obvious to anyone that Leicester offer things not included in the current salary cap arrangements. A bit like companies avoiding paying tax, by seeking loopholes. This is of course against the spirit of the salary cap.
How do they afford so many internationals (and have afforded many more in the past)? If you are so adamant, then prove your stance. As you would say - 'idiot'!
Posted 13:24 15th October 2012
lawynd says...
Also, Saracens and Bath have the same number of players with international caps in their squad, with Gloucester, Worcester and Wasps not far behind, just to make even more of a mockery of you.
Posted 11:46 14th October 2012
lawynd says...
@makemehappy - Well if it's so obvious that this is the case, why have Tigers not been punished for breaching the salary cap? Why did they let Alesana Tuilagi leave, if they could simply pay him what they liked - after all, Leicester generate far more income than they spend on wages?
As for your suggestion that the number of internationals in the squad being some sort of smoking gun, let's really look at that shall we? Leicester have nine players in the England Elite squad; these are players which Leicester receive additional funding for, to the tune of an additional £250,000 over the £4.26m salary cap. They have a further three current internationals, and a further eight former/non-current internationals. The last two groups won't be commanding the same salaries as the first group, so your accusation immediately falls down there. There are 42 players in the Leicester squad; excluding one of those (because all clubs can exclude one player's wages from the cap now), divide that £4.5m between 41 and you get £109,756 each. Given that there are seven players fresh out of the academy in that lot as well who won't be paid anywhere near that sum to dovetail neatly with those earning more, and I think you can probably run off with your tail between your legs. Idiot.
Posted 11:42 14th October 2012
makemehappy says...
@lawynd - 'as normal' hey. Are you seriously suggesting that any English team can contain over 20 internationals in its squad? I seem to recall someone from NHSaints management laughing when they stated that what they needed to do better, is learn how to fiddle the salary cap like their good neighbours. I think the question is, are you seriously suggesting that they don't fiddle their finances - I can't have found the only plonker on the planet that doesn't think so, can I? So get off your high horse again, and don't be so arrogant!
Posted 08:06 13th October 2012
lawynd says...
@makemehappy - care to back up those spurious claims or, like normal, are you going to decline to prove your bovine excerement?
Posted 22:59 12th October 2012
makemehappy says...
Leicester do look very strong this year, but hopefully someone will confirm that Leicester clearly shouldn't be in the competition as they ignore the salary cap.
Posted 16:06 12th October 2012
jmehrtens says...
@pierredelot1
Well I don't understand what it is you find so terrible and boring about Leicester.
But they scored more than 3 tries per game in their domestic league last season. That is on average 1 more than Toulouse who topped the French league on try count.
And most were scored by their backline.
I certainly won't argue that lack of tries means a boring game but I find most teams that score tries are fun to watch.
Posted 15:35 12th October 2012
ArmchairGeneral says...
@pierre. Toulouse can play champagne rugby Leicester can play campaign rugby. Toulouse can impress us all, Leicester can win and everyone goes home happy.
Posted 14:42 12th October 2012
lawynd says...
@pierredelot1 - whilst I'm certainly not confident of Leicester beating Toulouse, have you watched the Tigers at all in the last 18 months? Your comments suggest you haven't. If we're basing our opinions on stale rumour and history, I could say all of those things about Toulouse as well!
Posted 13:19 12th October 2012
pierredelot1 says...
I predict a few miserable Tigers late Sunday afternoon. Tigers epitomise the lack of forward momentum and thinking in the English game. Big solid stick it up your jumper rugby boys with only one plan Plan A. Leicester and English rugby in particular will not change until they are beaten again and again at this level. Plod up the middle in the sincere belief that they will outmuscle the opposition no matter what. No interesting lines of attack, all pre-rehearsed boring moves and a totally predictable back line. Some great players but how they manage to play with a smile on their faces I don't know. Reminiscent of Don Revies Leeds, solid, disciplined workmanlike fit but overreheased to the point of boredom. Although I'm a Toulouse supporter (Suprise suprise) I really hope this style of English Rugby is confined to the sick bin in the very near future. You can bring back Harlequins and their upfront, open eyed exciting offloading and challenging rugby anytime. Toulouse are not at their best this year, but in Maka, McAllister, Fikou, Medard, Poitrenaud, Clerc etc they do make us smile and they do try to play open exciting rugby. 30,000 plus in the stadium on Sunday, I bet Ospreys Treviso will be lucky to make 30% of that. Thats why they want to change the format, they put the money in the competition.
Posted 10:58 12th October 2012
Propmelsey says...
Leicester to top the group and win the competition ....... best squad in Europe.
Posted 12:00 11th October 2012
jmehrtens says...
Pro 12 Champion, Top 14 Champion, Premiership finalist, indeed pool of death.
But Leicester has been there before, last year when the lost out on bonus points to a semifinalist and a finalist. Or when they where grouped with Leinster and Toulouse. (2009?)
Posted 08:14 11th October 2012
jprees says...
The ospreys shaky start was three consecutive wins ago, including a demolition of munster, so is pretty much irrelevant by now. No pro12 side will ever prioritise the league over Europe so it is frankly ridiculous to even suggest it. Complete waste of time and wish I hadn't bothered.
Posted 21:41 10th October 2012