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I got this far...
"Which sort of shows what lawynd was suggesting - that you live inside out with your head somewhere dark and smelly."
Posted 14:43 28th August 2012
rugby_rockstar - if, as you suggest, "...regionlism is the most sucessful blueprint for domestic rugby in the entire world...", why are the AP and T14 the most financially successful and stable in the world? None of the other domestic competitions are as successful as those two. Which sort of shows what lawynd was suggesting - that you live inside out with your head somewhere dark and smelly.
And your nonsense about the AP's mediocre teams and "water-treaders" just goes to support this too. In a league of 12 teams, particularly one which faces promotion and relegation each season, there will be teams which come 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on, all the way to 12th.
Your glowing teams - Quins and Chiefs - have both been promoted from the Championship and are doing brilliantly.
There are always going to be 3 general sets in a 12-team league - the top few who are battling for silverware, the middle who are having a scrap for an HC place, and the bottom who are fighting against the possibility of relegation. And there will be, naturally, some overlaps. But to suggest that Bath, Worcester, Sale and Wasps are nothing but "...water treaders..." "...who quite frankly and go jump for the use they are to England." shows a complete lack of understanding of the game, the AP and massive disrespect to those players who put their bodies on the line each week. To suggest that they offer nothing to England (and I take it that you mean to the EPS and Saxons), just highlights your ignorance.
I'm not going to get in a debate with you, as my four year old son is offering a greater intellectual challenge and there's no point.
I would like for you to really simply and clearly, lay out exactly how you would set up a Regional Competition. I've read your posts and there's a lot of detail missing. Try starting something like this:
X number of regions, based in these areas... and go from there.
Posted 11:37 28th August 2012
hahaha, yeah, and every other reader will see your last response for the climb down it is too! face it you aren't going to respond to my post becasue you haven't got a decent argument to refute it.
Like i said right at the start, you and your minority ilk will always try to shout down the regional argument anbd belittle it but once called out and asked to discuss it you'll get shown up pretty quickly, you didn't even last a week!!!!
Face it, regionlism is the most sucessful blueprint for domestic rugby in the entire world and people in England are waking up to that fact and sooner or later we'll have it too.
Posted 19:25 25th August 2012
I'm not going to respond to all of that, because you're frankly talking out of your backside, although I'm absolutely positive that you'll see this as you having 'won'. You've completely missed most of my points, have wilfully twisted or misconstrued the others, and still haven't answered most of my questions!
I'll leave you with this to ponder - if you bring in regions and effectively subduct the existing clubs, who is going to bother developing players and managing academies when their best players will simply be swallowed up by a regional entity? More importantly, how is your pie-in-the-sky idea going to change the youth system and ensure that more youngsters are given the correct training and skill-set, rather than just turned into gym monkeys?
Posted 13:29 24th August 2012
Ran out of space in my last post so...
you said, "Further to that, I didn't dismiss improvement at club level - learn to read, sonny. I actually emphasised that there's a problem with the grassroots and academy system, which implicitly includes the clubs, as well as the RFU! Given that I'm involved in coaching at that level, I'd hardly say I'm elitist either.
But you also said (this is cut and pasted) "There's currently too much emphasis on picking from certain clubs and academies, certain public schools, and all of them are simply supplying youngsters who become gym monkeys at the age of 14, which isn't what we need. You can create regions but it won't change the underlying structure, and as I'm sure everyone's aware, you can't polish a turd. Premier Rugby aren't innocent in this and neither are the member clubs, but they also can't change everything themselves and the RFU need to step up to the plate at the same time."
Thats an apathetic response. There's nothing about improving the system there, its about, leaving it be, because that's what it is, I supose. That sums up the current domestic set up. WHY can't it be improved? It can be improved, but the current set up can't be bothered to. So we'll find someone who can provide that service. That's the beauty of borrowing from the NZ system. its all there. you could even bring in a New Zealander to put in place what they take for granted, If things are not working you fix it. "Can't polish a turd," you said. That sort of weak response is why I don't see a place for your kind in the future of English rugby. If you can evolve then you are a dinosaur and they went extinct.
Posted 10:23 24th August 2012
Your question was, "So, I'll ask again, polite-like; how would you organise a regional system in England?"
See My answer in paragraphs 2 and 3, but you know that becasue you then reply to paragraph three... so basically your first paragraph is drivel. Can you read or is your mum reading this to you?
Love how you don't want to mention the euro boycott. It does prove what a bunch of self-serving incompetent idiots they are so I can see why you are running for cover on that point.
Jeez, see paragraph 3 (again).
Wahey! something tangible! They will play in the Pro 12, (if they'd have us, they certainly won't invite the current clubs in) I've thought a british (and italian since they beat PRL to the punch) league would improve the standard of the english game for years now as well as give england stars more exposure to celtic refs. We could also then desolve the pointless anglo-welsh cup.
The current aviva league will be untouched, the RFU will create a new level above it and players with england aspirations will sign for the regions over the next 4 year period when enough players have signed you add the 4 teams to the pro 12 this potentially gives us 4 years to impliment the transition, but the decision to cut the PRL clubs loose happens early on and once started there will be no going back. The beauty of this is you dont have to negiociate with the clubs like the WRU had to. and if they go to court about it, then the RFU have a very strong case to say that the PRL clubs were not performing. You got, sub standard rugby. You got them serving notice to walk away from the best quality domestic competitiion in the northern hemisphere, you got blood gate. The reasons for bringing in a new elite level are compelling and reasonable, if you don't deliver a service then the customer has a right to look elsewhere.
Posted 10:12 24th August 2012
@rugby_rockstar - yet again, you've utterly failed to answer my questions, instead trying to move the goalposts and muddy the discussion. Premier Rugby's stance on Europe has nothing to do with this and actually, I do rather agree with one point made, even if I disagree with how they've gone about it. And I fail to see how this makes bringing regions in easier, because you're the only nutcase I've ever seriously heard going on about it.
Anyway, where are you going to base these four franchises? What exciting names are you going to give them to bring the punters in, like they do in Wales, Scotland and in Super Rugby? What competition are they going to compete in besides the HEC, pray tell? What clubs will you involve in each region? What will happen to the existing Premiership (and possibly Championship) clubs? If you can't even answer basic questions such as these so we can have a proper discussion about it, rather than your verbal diarrhoea, then I rest my case.
Further to that, I didn't dismiss improvement at club level - learn to read, sonny. I actually emphasised that there's a problem with the grassroots and academy system, which implicitly includes the clubs, as well as the RFU! Given that I'm involved in coaching at that level, I'd hardly say I'm elitist either.
Posted 20:03 23rd August 2012
I'm scared, asking how I'd structure the regions! Before I get to that, I bet you are feeling pretty stupid given the news today that PRL are boycotting the best quality domestic competition in Europe. Yeah they are really pulling their weight, aren't they. How stupid and self centred are these people? Well that's their public relations in tatters. Bringing in regions will be even easier now they've upset every euro-cup fan in England.
A starting point is that we have plenty of models to copy and plenty of examples of how not to do it from Celtic Warriors and the Australian set up who have too many francises. Past lessons can be learnt from.
I'd start with four francises based in rugby hot beds. Possibly giving the chance to Div 1 clubs to evolve and grow into the domestic power houses. I wouldn't try for too many francises too soon, but the quality of the teams will be very strong and sell themselves to any rugby fan. I'd bring in someone from NZ to steer the transition. Its all about implimenting a sucessful model. German and Japanese car manufacturers do it all over the world all the time.
Now as for your non-effort of a response, dismissing improvement at club level as polishing a turd is the biggest own goal I've ever heard in my life! How can you not even try to improve things!?! Like I said before all you are intersted in is your cozy elitist lifestyle. That's no way to run any organisation let alone a competative sport.
The current system is appauling. We have a proven sucessful model used all over the world, compared to 12 individual clubs who can't develop talent or compete with their european opponents. And they want to boycott the best competition in the NH. You've got no chance of winning this discussion with your clubs doing their best lemming impressions in the news pages every morning. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Posted 16:12 23rd August 2012
@rugby_rockstar - not that it makes a jot of difference, but I live in Cambridge and have been a long-time supporter of both Cambridge and Leicester...that rather burst your bubble, didn't it? Supporting grass-roots rugby (because National League 1 is effectively the pinnacle of the amateur game) and coaching juniors it are two things I'm incredibly passionate about, and that's where the step-change needed in England will come from, not some cobbled-together regional system. Which, I might add, you've not answered a single question I've asked regarding, instead you've 'dodged the issue and gotten personal'. There's currently too much emphasis on picking from certain clubs and academies, certain public schools, and all of them are simply supplying youngsters who become gym monkeys at the age of 14, which isn't what we need. You can create regions but it won't change the underlying structure, and as I'm sure everyone's aware, you can't polish a turd. Premier Rugby aren't innocent in this and neither are the member clubs, but they also can't change everything themselves and the RFU need to step up to the plate at the same time.
So, I'll ask again, polite-like; how would you organise a regional system in England?
Posted 01:34 23rd August 2012
I totally agree that the England national team is the most important aspect however we can't comprimise on the proud tradition of our separate rugby clubs and form a regional enterprise similar to the Welsh system ( as a bath fan i could never comprehend being pooled with my SW rivals !!!!).
We are lucky in England that we a large player base supported predominatley by the private school system and a broad fan base, whereas Wales have a smaller population and player base and therefore the regional set up makes sense to pool their talent. England have dipped in recent years in the european cup partly because of the Top 14, 7million salary cap taking the best SH stars and the top native players are spread more thinly across the our 12 teams incomparison to Wales and Irleand.
I do not think a knee jerk reaction is required however with squads starting to invest more in youth and the change in england selection policy seeing the return of players like cips, haskell, palmer and only fringe players like the armitage boys going abroad to chase big bucks. In the mean time the Top 14 is running an unsustainble system with clubs running huge debt and the welsh are having a genuine problem hanging onto thier stars.
This year will be one of the most close run and competitive AP's in memory with clubs bursting with young english qualified talent, and on the national scene we have a coach who actually picks on form/talent and has everyone behind him. Everything is cyclical, england dominated, the european cups and now we have fallen behind, but all the AP teams want to be their and want to win and are making all the right moves....just wait people...just wait
Posted 23:23 22nd August 2012
so lawynd, which Aviva town do you live in? Or are you too chicken to admit it. This is the usual rubbish that comes from the previledged few that enjoy a premiereship club on their doorstep and don;t want their cozy minority lifestyle spoiled by the rest of the country. The reason you don't want english domestic rugby to reinvent itself and use the same template thats turned wales from whipping boys to 4th place finishers in the RWC in less than 10 years and keeps NZ at the very top of the sport despite their low playing numbers is because you're selfish, thats all. If you can do it in rugby mad wales then you can do it in football mad england with ease and as for the grumpy old gits who'll walk away from the game in a strop, they can leave if they like, england will improve and they'll be replaced with young kids inspired by their national team and not just in london or Leicester but in every part of the country. Thats why the England team is way more important than any city club. We're talking about inspiring millions to get into the sport rather than thousands.
If PRL did their job and provided England with players ready to make the step up to international rugby then regionalism wouldn't be needed but they don't. The standard of rugby in the Aviva Premiere mediocre. You've got 66% dead weight. how do you justify that? you can't and you'll dodge the issue and get personal and try to shout down anyone who shines a spotlight at the sub-standard drivel PRL churn out every year. Just blame all of England's problems on the England head coach right? He's a fantastic smoke screen. (blaming the head coach is also the easy thoughtless answer) Here's a stright question, Yes or No. Is the English domestic scene punching its weight? Go on. Answer that question with a straight answer and let the readers decide if you being honest.
Posted 17:37 22nd August 2012
@rugby_rockstar - you keep spouting jumbled rhetoric, but exactly how would you turn English rugby into a regional model? You'd dissuade fans from attending games, just for a start. Regions condense the geographic locations down even further, leaving many fans with divided loyalties and greater distances to travel for games. It would also disrupt the existing scouting and county network, with boundaries needing to be redrawn to ensure each region can draw a fair share of players. Furthermore, there aren't 12 towns or cities with AP teams you idiot, Harlequins and Saracens are both now back in London. That would also confound matters; five of the twelve teams are based in a very confined geographic location - how would they proceed? How would you divide them all up? Where would the existing clubs fit, into the Championship? What about those clubs in the next tier?
As per usual, you're all mouth and no trousers.
Posted 16:16 22nd August 2012
I want the aviva prem to be competative on a european level. So I want to reward the quality teams and get rid of the water-treaders who basically milk the premiereship for cash. I don't want clubs that don't have aspirations to win trophies Newcastle were not going anyway. Had no goals and were not willing (or possibly able) to invest in a successful rugby team. That sort of club is not going to contribute to the National team. England are poor because we have too many water treaders in our elite domestic competition. People could learn alot from Exeter Chiefs and Harlequins but how many others are really hitting those heights? 12 teams? not really is it. Leicester, Saracens, Harlequins, Exeter, they are serious teams who try hard to be winners. Then you have the mediocre Gloucesters, London Irish, Northampton's followed but the water treaders Bath, Worcester, Sale and Wasps who quite frankly and go jump for the use they are to England. I'm from Plymouth I'm one of the silent majority who don't live in one of the 12 lucky cities that have Premiereship rugby. For me I want to see a sucessful England, but all I see is a bloated domestic league that's not providing England with the strong foundations required to build that side. Forget RWC 2015 thats gone. I just wish someone would shine the spotlight on the Aviva league now so that they're given an ultimatum. SHAPE UP BEFORE 2015, OR GET REGIONALISED.
Posted 13:21 22nd August 2012
If Andrew has anything to do with it, don't expect anything other than protecting vested interest
Posted 09:42 22nd August 2012
Whatever they decide it has to be conditions that fit all current premiership grounds. If not then its still a joke. A ground like the Rec wouldnt have met the criteria before. Even last year under the criteria only three teams met the most basic criteria of 10,000 capacity and London Welsh werent one of them. So unless they set realistic criteria that would allow a club like the Pirates a chance at promotion then its still a joke.
Posted 23:17 21st August 2012
Top side goes up, bottom side goes down. Obviously that wouldn't stretch past the first couple of gin and tonics, never mind the port and cheese.
Posted 22:38 21st August 2012
Winner of Championship promoted. Bottom of Premiership relegated. (Pref 2 up 2 down). What on Earth can be so difficult in that?????????????????????
Posted 21:36 21st August 2012