melkdave says...

@APV1

Well said concerning MD and the debate from most of our celtic cousins,I have noticed that they havent come up with any real arguements as to why the format should stay the same in regards to HEC qualification,but only seem to be able to insult english and french supporters,and accuse us of throwing a tantrum ,because our teams arnt wining.They fail to notice that english and french clubs dont really need the HEC for surviial,with 80% of income from the leagues,while all the Pro12 clubs (with the possable exception of the big 2 irish)really do need the HEC for survial.Because the Pro12 atm is a meaningless league ,where end of season position means nothing ,and has nothing for fans to be excited for .The real shame is the rugby played is of a good quality in most games,but no ones watching,as the games are meaningless.,So arnt generating any meaningful income for the teams .

Posted 22:52 30th August 2012

APV1 says...

@ magic_dragon - I'm not after your respect, thankfully. All I'm after is fairness across the board.

The top 6 teams from each of the AP, Top 14 and Pro12 qualify. Simple. Not Zebras, fresh into the Pro12 and teams which "do an Edinburgh".

They qualify on merit by being in the top 6 of their domestic competition (or their closest facsimile of a domestic competition, as they're too weak to produce more than 4 teams). They then go on to take on the best 12 other teams in European Club Rugby to see who's the best club that season.

Is it selfish for English and French rugby to want to protect their successful competitions? Perhaps. But it would be just plain daft to ruin the world's two most successful (from a financial stability, attendance and longevity point of view) club competitions, just so that other clubs and tournaments stay viable.

People (me included) keep suggesting that English rugby and the AP needs to get its house in order, especially after the recent promotion / relegation debacle. And, for once, we are. Why then ruin that just so the weaker teams can get to play with the big boys?

That's what the Amlin Challenge Cup - the next level down in European Club competition - and the LV= Cup are for.

And you can't blame this on sour grapes, as I've said before. Bath are no-where near the Heineken at the moment and weren't even good enough to stay in the Amlin. That's down to being beaten by better teams, which is the way it should be. But I don't believe that every team in the HC deserve their spot under the current system.

And you have the audacity of accusing me and melkdave of being narrow-minded and clueless. I suspect I'd also get a better debate and more sense out of your 5 year old niece, as we're not getting much from you.

Posted 15:05 30th August 2012

APV1 says...

@ crunchfit - I think the Top 6 from AP, T14 & Pro12 and the highest 2 finishes not already qualified from the Amlin might be the answer. Or just keep it to 18 teams, which really is plenty. That would give the Pro12 some bite and might give Edinburgh something to think about.

What frustrates me is the ignorance of some of the posters. They read a headline with the word "England" and immediately go on the offensive, regardless of the facts of the matter. Their ignorance is astounding and their default setting of "Arrogant England" is just such old hat.

Next thing we'll all be accusing the Kiwis of poaching Samoans and then where will we be..?!

Posted 13:05 30th August 2012

magic_dragon says...

@Melkdave,yes I'm angry,as I'm passionate about rugby,including Europena rugby,so what's that got to do with having a tantrum? Grow up for Gods sake.

Posted 12:54 30th August 2012

crunchfit says...

@APV1

People get angry because some people are just taking out their frustration at the recent successes of teams of other countries rather than focusing on the actual issue.

I think the system of top 6 teams qualifying from the Pro12, regardless of country, would be better than the current system and improve both the HC and Pro12.

Posted 11:57 30th August 2012

Rosbif says...

APV1.... War and Peace perhaps not.... but (and here's a pub quiz question for you) the musings of Leopold Bloom are possibly closer to the mark??

:-)

Posted 18:45 29th August 2012

GCP_JONES says...

@ APV 1

Jaysus Man you must be exhausted, it was like reading War &Peace.Good Luck to Bath in the coming season, I hope Yis get your Mojo back.

Posted 17:02 29th August 2012

APV1 says...

@ magic_dragon - and another thing... You make the brilliant suggestion that, "They need to sit around the table and thrash this out for the benefit of European rugby as a whole," That's exactly what the French and English are demanding.

@ GCP_JONES - good points, especially the Tigers examples of Ford / Flood and Castro / Cole. But the IRFU have, one could argue, forced centralised contracts on the clubs in exchange for support. This means that they can dictate when those players are rested and when they play.

It's a real tangle and I suspect we're not the people to sort it out. And, despite the comment that, "Rob Andrew even looks like he's doing something!" above, I hope he's no-where near it too. But if a pool of teams trying to compete in the same competition are all starting from different places (with regards to restrictions, rather than talent) and have different qualification criteria, how can that be fair?

There's been a lot of posts about English and French arrogance, with toys being thrown and dummies spat (here and on the other HC threads). It's actually simply down to fairness. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bath need to buck up their ideas, firstly in the AP, then beyond. I don't like that we're struggling to even maintain a mid-table place, but it's not unfair that we're beaten by better teams. But I bet we'd give a few HC-qualified teams a run for their money (The Zebras, if no-one else!). Yet if we finish out of the top 6 in the AP we don't get the chance. The Zebras just rock up one day and they're in. Edinburgh sacrifice their Pro12 season to succeed in the HC. I know why they did it, but I don't agree with it. Is it fair? Not in my eyes.

PHEW! I think I need to lay off the coffee for a while and have little lie down in a darkened room. Wake me when it's over.

Posted 14:54 29th August 2012

GCP_JONES says...

@ APV1.....

A salary cap is one of the many things that the IRB should have on their agenda.

As I said the proposed re-jigging of the format is by-and-large a good one, but I feel I have to defend the attitude that the likes of Leinster/Munster rest(rotate) their squads while teams in England and France don't.

Leinster have with exeption of Toulouse the best academy in Europe we do not spend money on marquee players unless there is a need (Brad Thorn), if you look at the players brought in this season none of them are household names. they develope the talent at home and have players that can compete on 2 fronts.

In France the teams do exactly the same using their strongest sides at home and weaker ones away (you would imagine it would be the other way round).

I know Bath don't have the same strength and depth but the likes of Leicester, Saracens, Northamtpon can do exactly the same. R Cockerill has the luxury of having both George Ford/ Toby Flood at 10 or Dan Cole/Gastro tighthead for example.

Posted 14:04 29th August 2012

magic_dragon says...

The English and the French need to grow up,they always start moaning and complaining when things don't their way. They already have a better representation than the other countries in the HC,have far bigger players bases,have more money,and have stronger domestic leagues,and they are saying they are at a disadvantage! It makes me sick to be honest,at a time when we should be getting our heads together to try to work out how on earth we're going to compete with the Southern hemisphere teams on a regular basis,we're on the verge of tearing ourselves apart. This all stems from Munster and Leinster dominating the HC over the last few years,the sooner the French and English clubs accept they are just better than them,and figuring out ways to beat them,instead of making pathetic excuses,the better it will be for all of us. The HC should be expanded,not reduced,but the French and English don't want to infringe upon their precious domestic leagues,so there's no chance of that. They need to sit around the table and thrash this out for the benefit of European rugby as a whole,otherwise the next WC semi-finalists will be NZ,SA,Aus and the Argies,mark my words! One angry Welshman.

Posted 13:12 29th August 2012