Planet Rugby

Loose Pass

18th March 2013 07:02

Props as referees for scrums

For prop's sake! No more collapsed scrums!

This week we will mostly be concerning ourselves with an officiating suggestion, complete performances, complete players, hooligans and the future...

Wales annihilated England. But although it would take only the most cycloptic of pathological whingers to blame it all on the referee, there's a legitimate gripe from some England fans doing the rounds over Sunday lunches about the scrum officiating of Steve Walsh.

Mention this also at the outset: Walsh was on top form on Saturday. He was consistent, he didn't miss much and like the Welsh back row, he rarely looked anything other than calm and in control. But the scrums were a big problem. In all honesty - and Scotland said similar after their clash with Wales last week - it seemed to come down to conning the referee rather than actually engaging hard and straight. A wise old Wales fan on Sunday also opined: "I think they read the ref better at the scrums."

Part of that is down to experience for the England front row, but it doesn't remove the notion that scrums are still a lottery, still an area now dominated by technical knowledge and tricks by the props, educated guesswork by the referee, rarely a way of restarting the game like they should be.

One bright spark during the game yesterday chirped up: "ok, so props don't ever join the referee ranks because it's a lot of running, but would it be so harmful to perhaps get a prop on the pitch to officiate at scrum-time only? He could then leave the field until the next scrum. He wouldn't have to run anywhere, he'd get free pies on the touchline, and we'd have a scrum official who'd really know what was going on."

Brilliant idea... over to you readers to find the flaws or expand on it. But we at Loose Pass are yet to find anything intrinsically wrong with the concept.


It wasn't just Wales who were magnificent on Saturday. Those fortunate enough to witness the Crusaders clicking into gear against the Bulls would have been witness to an equally exceptional dismantling.

Had it not been for several early handling errors, the Crusaders could easily have racked up 50. And while Wales' display was one of steely control, physical dominance and clinical exploitation of opportunities, the Crusaders gave it all a flourish of creativity. Effortless changes of play direction, smooth handling, gliding inners and outers running lines, a superb show by 22 skilled players all singing from the same songsheet.

There's been some damned fine rugby on display this weekend. Don't you love this time of year?


Returning to England, there is some soul-searching to do. Fitness must be a concern; the gulf in fitness between England and Wales was clear in the final ten minutes.

But England's old bugbear: creativity, is a bigger problem. It's not just that they don't create many chances, it the desperate lack of prowess at taking them when they appear. The obsession with kicking has to go; they've butchered more overlaps with kicks than they have scored tries in this tournament.

Individuals need to examine their games. Owen Farrell must recognise that a fly-half who sits as deep and static as he does is not going to be able to take charge of a game if his pack is not winning the upper hand. Manu Tuilagi must realise how much he wastes by being selfish. The back row should generally look at Wales' second try and consider how much more they could offer were they to have the presence of mind and skill set of Justin Tipuric at decisive moments.

There's a lot more time to go for this England team, a lot more experience needs to be built, a lot more potential to be realised. What would be a catastrophic error would be to look at this defeat and say: 'we had the game plan but not the execution'. If England can find it within themselves to say: 'we are not creating or taking the opportunities we should be, what skills can we improve on there', it will be a key moment in the team's evolution.


Never mind the dire fare served up on the pitch, there is only one word for what was seen at the Kings-Sharks game in the stands last week: disgraceful.

Here's a snippet:

Leave aside the clear evidence it was a black v white issue, leave aside the complete lack of anybody official even looking like they might intervene in what threatened, briefly, to escalate into something dreadful for three minutes.

The Kings home games have been tarnished consistently with stories of fall-over-vomiting drinking, fighting, complete disregard for no-smoking laws, foul language and just generally a bad atmosphere. For a franchise supposed to be a suppressed rugby heartland, that's a lot of soccer stuff in the stands right there.

The administration has said it will do something, without ever saying what or indeed - and perhaps most regrettably - without even vaguely vowing to try and trace down anybody in the video, for example.

Oh.... no, wait a minute, they have done something. An anti-booing campaign. Woo.


Finally, a quick look below the Six Nations. Georgia clinched the 'Six Nations B' title, grinding out a 9-9 draw against Romania on Saturday in Bucharest.

So what of it? It's a big deal for Georgia, who are now virtually guaranteed a place at the next World Cup... but not a great deal else.

In that division are now some fine teams. Spain and Portugal have some way to go yet, but Russia, Georgia, and Romania are all as good as Italy were in 2000 when the Italians joined the Six Nations. Look where they are now.

Promotion and relegation is a non-starter between the two, but it might now be time to see if there couldn't perhaps be a promotion-relegation play-off between the Six Nations bottom side and the winners of the ENC1A division (which is played over two years).

Yes, there's no room in the current calendar. But it's about time that Europe became as pro-active as the IRB and SANZAR has been about giving rewards to the Pacific Islands, America and Argentina. Even just the chance for Georgia to move up a league would, you think, be enough to make the Georgians happy.

Loose Pass compiled by Richard Anderson

Comments

Spartacus says...

@jamesliveinhope - have the new scrummaging laws reduced the serious accidents that occasionally happen in scrums? If so I obviously retract my statement agreeing totally about safety being paramount, but I suspect the hit creates a higher risk of serious injury, especially given increased size of players. What I was getting at was that scrums seem to be collapsing more, not less.

Can anybody shed light on this?

As for rucking - Healy's stamp occured in an era where proper rucking is not allowed! Rucking with your feet was never dangerous unless players decided to stamp and/or target face/head/groin. That can still happen today regardless of the rule change.

i agree about the hit - it is more American Football than rugby. I think it is often the shorter squatter props who make life difficult for the giants who have to bend down to scrummage, increasing the likelihood of a collapse. The way to solve this is a rule that props should be between 5'8" and 5'10", over 18 stone, and ugly. i.e. back to the old days (hopefully safely)

Posted 15:48 22nd March 2013

Fonzarelli says...

Been saying we should use those with wealth of experience in the front row as specialised scrum refs for years. It's beyond a joke now. I'd also enforce looser cotton clothing for props, a depowered hit, and a straight feed.

Posted 07:01 21st March 2013

chrisbennett198 says...

As for the scrums, my opinion is that the whole problem is that teams are allowed to push before the ball comes in and as such, the engagement is key.

You can take the "hit" out of the equation by having the teams engage, the ref stands back and only then is the ball allowed to be put into the scrum. Much like back in my school days where the hooker used to tap the props shoulder to tell the scrum half when to put it in. I dont think we'll ever have perfect scrums where people push straight and square as every sportsman always looks for a way to get one over on the oppostion and the best cheaters usually win. it was the same was I was a prop at U-16s and is the same now. I just feel if we take the initial hit out of the equation it may help.

Posted 13:54 20th March 2013

lawynd says...

@7ton - I see what you're saying, I just wasn't equating a time limit with stopping the clock. To be fair, the clock is already often stopped if there's an excessive amount of messing around for set pieces and restarts, so I'm not sure that needs altering, although perhaps there needs to be a clearer edict on 'time wasting', as individual referees vary in what they tolerate in this regard.

Posted 09:53 20th March 2013

7ton says...

Lawlynd

Yes Tidy up the scrums by all means. However I don't see why adding a little time due to excessive scrum collapses should have to be extended to other set pieces. The lineout is not really much problem and there is the opportunity to take a quick one. As for penalty kicks there is already a time limit for those.

Posted 09:01 20th March 2013

jamesliveinhope says...

@spartacus - I would suggest that Matt Hampson and others might differ with your view.

The whole point of many of these rules is player safety. This isn't the old days of Probyn keeping a plant on his rowing machine these are very fit, very powerful athletes putting a very high level of power through the necks and shoulders of 6 people.

Rucking is the same, Healy's stamp could have ended a career. Backs now are all the size of forwards of 20 years ago. It just can't be allowed to happen any more.

The scrum is a problem because there are two packs trying to gain an advantage in the timing and power of the hit. The way to stop that happening is to remove the hit (I am aware that there is no such thing officially). The other issue is the ability of front rows to bind to each other which is a major contributor to front row stability removed (props don't even have love handles any more)

Posted 18:00 19th March 2013

Headhunter99 says...

@Spartacus - Totally agree reintroduction of rucking would cut down on players slowing the ball down by slowly rolling clear whilst holding up their hands... provided the rucking is kept away from the head and the face.

@TheGreatOne - I know you make these comments for effect but you really come over as a complete moron... how can you condone in any form or level crowd violence at any rugby or sports event ?? Tosser !!

Posted 15:38 19th March 2013

lawynd says...

@7ton - I can't remember whether it was a Beeb or Sky debate, but I'm sure one of them calculated an average of seven to eight minutes per game of redundant time at scrums, and I know I've watched games where there has been more. Also, you'd have to extend the same provision to other set pieces - lineouts, penalties and conversions. I know what you're saying and I agree, but the way to solve the problem is to tidy up the scrum rather than allow for the mediocrity we're currently experiencing.

Posted 14:20 19th March 2013

7ton says...

Lawlynd

Fair point but is there that much time wasted at the scrum? Maybe just stop the clock if a scrum collapses or something and has to be re-set. It can be frustrating towards the end of a close game where we see the scrum going up and down and the clock ticking away.

Posted 11:59 19th March 2013

lawynd says...

@7ton - games would last for as long as American football ones do if the clock stopped for everything; it's a non-starter for both the fans in the stadium and the television broadcasters.

Posted 11:02 19th March 2013

7ton says...

In regards to the time wasted with scrums I think that the clock should be stopped when the ref blows the whistle for a knock-on or something and not started until the ball is put in. Then if the scrum collapses or whatever the clock should again be stopped and so on.

Posted 10:51 19th March 2013

startledwombat says...

>Why don't you have a ball boy run on and feed the scrum

Because some ball boys are cheats already. They are home-town selected and are prone to being trampled on if they hold onto the ball too long to prevent quick lineouts being taken.

In Australian Rules they do have the umpires doing their "throw up" or whatever they use instead of a kick-off.

Posted 10:30 19th March 2013

Tvaddict says...

Ok, how about I put a positive slant on this. I am so certain that the referee impacted the result on the weekend, but instead of whining about it, how about this. I bet that the next time England and Wales meet, and it's not referred by Clancy or Walsh, England will win comfortable (7+). If they don't then I'll donate ¿50 to charity.

Posted 07:39 19th March 2013

7ton says...

Regardless of whether Steve Walsh got it right or wrong with the scrum on Saturday it is a fact that many teams from all over at club and national level regard the scrum as an opportunity to win a penalty be it by honest or foul endeavour. The ref being human is not going to get it right all the time and I have to wonder if some of the less blatant penalties are really worth 3 points.

Posted 05:47 19th March 2013

Spartacus says...

I agree that Wales are better at playing the ref, and are wily in the scrum. But what really struck me about this game was that the scrums ruined it. Is this really an improvement from how scrums were prior to all these changes? Is the solution to just let them get on with it i.e. push until the ball comes out somewhere. If you dont like the way your opponent is scrummaging then use your prop forward charm to dissuade him. Bring back rucking at the same time.

Posted 22:46 18th March 2013

carpelone says...

tellitlikeitis

The worst ever performance was Clancy's, England vs Italy

Posted 22:35 18th March 2013

TheGreatOne says...

No idea why all the poms are spitting their breast milk over a minor fisticuffs at a rugby game. I've seen my grandmother put in bigger hits at the bingo parlour. It was just a minor disagreement between a few gents that was settled the old fashioned way. Nothing in it at all. They probably had a drink and good laugh about it after the game.

Posted 20:21 18th March 2013

cayzam says...

Why don't you have a ball boy run on and feed the scrum? I would suggest the ref, but this way he won't be distracted and can watch the scrum closely. This way, the ball will be fed in straight, the way it should be, and hookers can actually live up to their name, and hook.

Posted 17:14 18th March 2013

fracassosandona says...

Promotion and relegation is a non-starter between the two, but it might now be time to see if there couldn't perhaps be a promotion-relegation play-off between the Six Nations bottom side and the winners of the ENC1A division (which is played over two years).

Every time we talk about relegation I'm sure people are thinking that the substitution will be between Georgia and Italy, maybe because azzurri had won half of possible wooden spoons since when they entered in the championship...

can you imagine a Six Nations without France or a Home Union with one of them relegated to play with Romania, Spain and Russia for two years while English or wales supporters are travelling to Tbilisi???

Can you imagine how many people from Georgia would come to Edimburgh?

I think it's still too early...

Italy had to defeat France in Grenoble (1997), twice Ireland and Scotland before being invited to be the 6th Nation.

No european team from Tier 2 has been given the chance to play agains Tier 1 teams out of RWC...

You have to begin from that...

Posted 17:08 18th March 2013

Iyhel says...

Funny how the Welsh pack outsmarting the Italians looked fair but not when it's against Scotland or England...

Re. the SA brawl, I'm shocked that the SARU can just post this online without a word, gives the impression that they are proud of this kind of display!

Posted 15:17 18th March 2013

Page 1 of 3

Character Count : 0/1900

Forthcoming Fixtures
FixtureDetails
All times are local
International Match
Sunday , May 26
England vs Barbarians13:00
More International Match fixtures
Aviva Premiership
Saturday , May 25
Leicester vs Northampton15:00
More Aviva Premiership fixtures
RaboDirect PRO12
Saturday , May 25
Ulster vs Leinster16:45
More RaboDirect PRO12 fixtures
Super Rugby
Friday , May 24
Chiefs vs Crusaders08:35
Melbourne Rebels vs Waratahs10:40
Saturday , May 25
Blues vs Brumbies08:35
Western Force vs Highlanders10:40
Southern Kings vs Cheetahs14:00
Stormers vs Reds16:05
Sharks vs Bulls18:10
More Super Rugby fixtures
Recent Results
FixtureDetails
All times are local
Heineken Cup
Saturday , May 18
Clermont Auvergne 15 - 16 ToulonClermont Auvergne vs Toulon Report
More Heineken Cup results
Super Rugby
Crusaders 23 - 3 BluesCrusaders vs Blues Report
Bulls 35 - 18 HighlandersBulls vs Highlanders Report
Waratahs 28 - 22 BrumbiesWaratahs vs Brumbies Report
Cheetahs 27 - 13 RedsCheetahs vs Reds Report
More Super Rugby results
Amlin Challenge Cup
Friday , May 17
Stade Francais 13 - 34 LeinsterStade Francais vs Leinster Report
More Amlin Challenge Cup results
Super Rugby
Hurricanes 12 - 17 ChiefsHurricanes vs Chiefs Report
Melbourne Rebels 30 - 21 StormersMelbourne Rebels vs Stormers Report
Western Force 13 - 23 SharksWestern Force vs Sharks Report
More Super Rugby results
Aviva Premiership
Sunday , May 12
Saracens 13 - 27 NorthamptonSaracens vs Northampton Report
Saturday , May 11
Leicester 33 - 16 HarlequinsLeicester vs Harlequins Report
More Aviva Premiership results
RaboDirect PRO12
Leinster 17 - 15 GlasgowLeinster vs Glasgow Report
More RaboDirect PRO12 results
Top 14
Castres 25 - 12 MontpellierCastres vs Montpellier Report
More Top 14 results
Super Rugby
Blues 36 - 32 Melbourne RebelsBlues vs Melbourne Rebels Report
Southern Kings 34 - 27 HighlandersSouthern Kings vs Highlanders Report
Waratahs 21 - 15 StormersWaratahs vs Stormers Report
More Super Rugby results
RaboDirect PRO12
Friday , May 10
Ulster 28 - 17 ScarletsUlster vs Scarlets Report
More RaboDirect PRO12 results
Top 14
Toulouse 33 - 19 Racing Metro ParisToulouse vs Racing Metro Paris Report
More Top 14 results
Super Rugby
Chiefs 22 - 21 Western ForceChiefs vs Western Force Report
Reds 32 - 17 SharksReds vs Sharks Report
Cheetahs 34 - 39 HurricanesCheetahs vs Hurricanes Report
Sunday , May 5
Brumbies 23 - 30 CrusadersBrumbies vs Crusaders Report
More Super Rugby results
Aviva Premiership
Saturday , May 4
Leicester 32 - 20 London IrishLeicester vs London Irish Report
Exeter 40 - 39 GloucesterExeter vs Gloucester Report
London Welsh 33 - 22 WorcesterLondon Welsh vs Worcester Report
More Aviva Premiership results