Before the event: Umaga and BOD
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Tana Umaga says he made peace with Brian O'Driscoll over his 2005 Lions tour spear tackle - but suggested the row was overplayed by spin doctors.
The New Zealand centre great told AFP he had "buried the hatchet" with Ireland's O'Driscoll, the then British and Irish Lions captain whose tour ended when he was picked up and dumped head-first to the deck seconds into the first Test.
"As you can see he obviously got over it, he's back playing," said Umaga, who carried out the tackle with team-mate and hooker Keven Mealamu, dislocating the Irish outside centre's shoulder.
"We've buried the hatchet. We've spoken a couple of times and have bumped into each other," added the 39-year-old, during a coaching stint at the Hong Kong Tens rugby tournament.
The tackle sparked a war of words between the New Zealanders and the Lions, with O'Driscoll calling it a "cheap shot" and reportedly being upset about Umaga's lack of apology at the time.
An independent citing commissioner ruled that the All Black pair had no case to answer, further angering O'Driscoll and then Lions coach Clive Woodward.
Some commentators in New Zealand suggested that the Lions camp was trying to divert attention from the side's poor performance in New Zealand, where they lost all three Tests against the rampant home side.
"We moved on, obviously (we) did very well in that series and it (the row) is a bit disappointing, but it's obviously what they wanted to achieve," Umaga said.
"They probably wanted something to override their disappointing performance over there."
O'Driscoll is in disciplinary hot water of his own this week as he is facing a citing hearing on Wednesday for stamping on Simone Favaro in Ireland's 22-15 Six Nations defeat by Italy.
The 34-year-old was playing what is thought to have been his last game for Ireland. He is tipped to announce his international retirement after this year's Lions tour to Australia.
Saturday's yellow card was only the second of a glittering 14-year career, including 125 caps for Ireland.
Comments
new_j4a says...
@Phill_Moore, It is indeed in the air. I can't answer your question re gender in French as, in spite of a 6 month fling with a French medical student in the mid 70's, I never learned enough about the language to do anything but get myself in trouble. But I am convinced that she is what she says she is, a 60-ish French academic (Psychology? Philosophy?) who is married to an Argentinian member of the Stade Toulousain coaching or medical staff....
Here's what she wrote about herself in December (isn't google great?):
"Toulousain refers to the club I support, i.e. Stade, which is masculine. I am originally from Sainte-Foy, so I would not refer to myself as being from Toulouse precisely, but you are correct, a woman from Toulouse would be une Toulousaine, but Toulousaine on its own makes me think of a gate and garage door company here in France. Anyway I digress. I am flattered that you think my written English is good. I am a prof here at the Uni and have spent most of my working life using English since it is the international language of academia. My other passion is rugby. I found this site to be interesting because it is so different to rugbyrama, mainly because of the contributions of non-French people like yourself. Surely you might assume that any French person on this site would have some kind of international perspective, therefore might speak a little English, non? "
Anyone who had invented this character would be wasting their time on a rugby site and should be focusing on finishing the next big novel in English literature.
Posted 23:24 30th March 2013
Phill_Moore says...
@new_j4a
love is in the air, lol
By the way, you say girl, but why would a toulousaine call herself a toulousain?
(Removing an l from Phill is not the same as removing an e from Toulousaine...)
@Toulousain
Accepted, no worries. I'd hate to see rugby completely become a media's bitch sport like soccer.
a+
Posted 20:02 30th March 2013
Toulousain says...
@Phil_Moore. It seems I owe you an apology. I was too quick to assume you were defending Umaga and Mealamu when you were in fact defending their right not to yield to a crazy media circus. I see that now. And I find myself agreeing with you. I hope you can accept my apology. (I'm also sorry if my posts led you to believe I might be defending Rougerie - that was certainly not my intention - when I say I've know his parents for 20 years, it doesn't follow that I like them much!).
A la prochaine mon brave :-)
Posted 08:19 30th March 2013
kennyisgay says...
that a boy new_j4anus. perhaps get your servant to translate for ya. come back when you ready for another can of whipaz rich boy
Posted 22:42 29th March 2013
new_j4a says...
@Phill_Moore, LOL, no I don't think there's a PR-Toulousain link....other than she is a poster just like the rest of us....well not quite like the rest of us...she is one extremely smart, extremely feisty, superb debater who has shredded my arguments in seconds and roasted me and many others on the fire of her logic. She is something special, but I thank the Good Lord daily that I didn't meet and marry her. Life would have been interesting, but would have left most of us broken men, I think.
Posted 19:23 29th March 2013
Phill_Moore says...
@new_j4a
as much as I'd like to spend a lot of time commenting on the web, other things have priority... Besides, a few times I have been unable to login and comment on this one particular debate. Weird, right?... a Toulouse-PR connection? Now that would be something awesome! lol
And the "choreographed" movement of Tana and Mealamu is nothing to really show premeditation, since players practice how to clear rucks many times and it becomes second-nature. Unfortunately, they got the start right but the end wrong, like most classic tip tackles.... Now, if the tip tackle had been followed by another foul play, say, an eye-gouge or a stomp, showing persistence, that would have been another matter... The rest are conspiracy theories and sour grapes.
@Rosbif, never heard of that, would indeed be interesting if it happened, link?
Posted 14:48 29th March 2013
Phill_Moore says...
Wow Toulousain, not only you win every debate, but everyone is always absolutely on your side, because... hmm, well... because you say so! And all of that without one piece of evidence... I guess the source of your hot air must be that inflated ego of yours.
(And correction, I'm laughing, rather than whining :D Maybe you'll get why some day, hopefully sooner than France winning a world cup!)
I still don't know where you got your favorite straw man that I defend the BOD tackle, but you never seem to let evidence get in the way of your fantasies anyway¿
And then you whinge about the hypocrisy of others, when yours is rather notorious, saying you don't defend thugs, but you already said Gougerie was just "dumb", while Tana acted with "premeditation", "Malice", a "cool head" etc¿ Surely nothing to do with the fact you are a Gougerie clan member...
You said premeditation involves "co-operation amongst individuals" lol,
Nice confusion! You cannot prove premeditation from a single reckless act, even between two players clearing a ruck. But you're much closer when a player commits 2 separate and different acts of thuggery, in a row, like, oh say, head-butting and then eye-gouging (rings a bell?) That shows 1) a chain of thought, 2) intention and 3) persistence beyond a possible first honest mistake.
Posted 14:16 29th March 2013
new_j4a says...
@kennyisgaycurious, I have no idea what you are talking about....something about your relationship with your mother? Have they taken you back into foster care? Anyway, I have done my bit to acknowledge your sad existence, so will go back to ignoring your juvenile drivel
Posted 10:29 29th March 2013
new_j4a says...
Has @Phill_Moore regained consciousness yet? Soon I hope. He is usually a voice of reason on getting rid of foul play.....but like us all a bit one eyed when it comes to team.
Posted 10:22 29th March 2013
new_j4a says...
@7ton, Yes agree completely. It would be interesting if the General could turn up any substantial evidence....an admission in an autobiography perhaps one day? But in the meantime, I think he's just connecting the dots to support his line of banter like a lot of us here.
Always good to see your very reasonable posts on here....refreshing.
Posted 10:08 29th March 2013
7ton says...
Toulousain
Yes I am inclined to agree with you about Rougerie but I was just trying to be a little diplomatic as he was not actually cited or found guilty of the offence.
new_j4a
I understand what you are saying about premeditation and suspicion.
However I was more interested in the "pre-planned" claim by Armchairgeneral that it was a pre-planned goal to injure BOD for the whole tour which makes it sound as if it was all discussed and planned out in the dressing room prior to the game or something
Posted 06:25 29th March 2013
kennyisgay says...
@ new_j4a, that's exactly it. How I'd love to pull out the oxford or tap into google so as to try and sound like a pretentious private school bender as you lot but that's just lame. It's more fun to pop in with my 1-2 liners then look up to see the steam coming up off the anglo French isle as toulouser, and co get to work on their essay responses, while I giggle my mutha effin ass off.
Anyway how's the junior 4a league going? You're obviously quite proud for making it this far in your career and who knows, one day when the coach finally calls you up to strip we might see you on youtube as that special compensation 45 year old who after years of carrying the drinks was given a run in the last 2 minutes of the season and courageously got himself knocks out in a tackle by Amy who lost the ball and gave your team their first ever win. You keep working hard now Newman and I'm sure junior 3d will come knocking
Posted 22:44 28th March 2013
new_j4a says...
@7ton, my (perhaps overpriced) 2c worth, on the topic of premeditation and intent...it can't be proved to my satisfaction without evidence of prior communication indicating intent....but I guess there is strong suspicion depending on whether you see the BOD event as a terrible coincidence that just happened or as more likely to be 2 people acting in concert, almost choreographed, to achieve a common goal.....I guess that if you buy the acting in concert argument, common goal etc., then you can infer intent and so premeditation...but...
@Toulousain convicting even one innocent person is not a price I am willing to pay to stamp out foul play, drugs, or anything else....so I want the clever people to invent a system that lets as few guilty people go free as possible, but hands out substantial punishments to the guilty....(not life time bans....that's like the equivalent of the death penalty for sportsmen and women....1 year or two ought to be enough to stamp out foul play).
Posted 20:57 28th March 2013
Toulousain says...
@7ton and @new_j4a. Nice to hear your voices! Totally agree with you 7ton. We all like to have a whinge now and again :-) It's the defending of foul play I don't like. And the hypocrisy that often (not always, but often) goes with it.
Re pre-meditation, as you say, it's very difficult to judge. We could get bogged down in a deontology vs consequentialism debate, but it's not helpful on a practical level. We know the IRB and citing people look at "intent" and a record of past behaviour. We all do. It's a natural human instinct.
How about this?
If you are caught taking drugs in the Olympics (eg Ben Johnson) you get a lifetime ban. No ifs, no buts. So athletes know to be very careful. Even when taking cough medicine. The sanction is very clear and very tough. There will be the occasional false positive (e.g. cough medicine) but that's the price we are willing to pay for clean athletics.
I wonder how that might play out in rugby. e.g. lifetime bans for gouging or targeting an opponent with feet or hands. No ifs no buts. I wonder how much more careful players would be with their feet and hands!! It would also mean fans would have nothing left to whinge about, since whingeing usually comes about from perceived leniency from officials, or players getting off on technicalities (like expiry of citing periods, etc). Some would shout that the game would lose its "physicality". And that might be true, to an extent. But that might be a price worth paying, or at least discussing? just a thought......
(By the way, you say "if Rougerie really did eye gouge McCaw" - I think it's pretty clear to everyone, whether you're French or a Kiwi, that he did, and that he is therefore forever a scumbag in my book)
Peace to you both :-)
Posted 14:22 28th March 2013
7ton says...
Armchairgeneral
If we could put aside all the other arguments and concentrate on your very serious allegation that this bad incident was a preplanned plot to injure BOD for the rest of the tour I would be grateful if you could clarify a few details like how far back this pre-planning went and what actual solid evidence you have to back it up.
Toulousain
On the wonderful argument of whingeing and hypocrasy
Lets be honest we all have a whinge now and again (me included) and so do you, especially after the 2011 RWC final.
From the view of ourselves and countries can You/Me or any nation really take the moral high ground when it comes to whingeing or when it comes to foul play.
Therefore if we could leave out all the silly insults and sarcasm I would be interested as to what extent you feel we can really accuse people of pre mediation without solid evidence.
For example if Rougerie really did eye gouge McCaw then only he really knows whether he done it spontaneously or he had pre planned to do it when the opportunity came along. Likewise could we not apply the same thinking to the bad BOD incident?
Posted 13:07 28th March 2013
new_j4a says...
@kennywhowantobegay (but hasn't quite plucked up the courage). By "waffle" do you mean all the stuff you don't understand....the grown up stuff...for, like those kids that went on to do GCSE?
Posted 09:03 28th March 2013
new_j4a says...
Going into the 12th round, I score this epic rumble in the jungle: Toulousain 181,Phill_Moore (whose guard is dropping and who hasn't landed a decent punch since round 9) 83.
Posted 22:30 27th March 2013
kennyisgay says...
black47 - irish punk. my bad loser
Posted 21:50 27th March 2013
kennyisgay says...
touloser, my god woman you can waffle. you in politics? you should cos you speak a lot of French. say was there a parade for the wooden spoon?
Posted 21:45 27th March 2013
Toulousain says...
LOL indeed. Each time you reply, you just show your hypocrisy more. Your argument, insofar as it can be called one, is against whingers. And you make this argument by.... wait for it...... by whingeing. Again. And again. And again. I don't see paulynz or any other sensible posters carrying on forever. Why can't you stop? Don't you see I'm doing this on purpose to show the hypocrisy of your position? It makes sense for me to carry on, since it does not defeat my argument (only my will to breathe). My complaint is with those who commit foul play and those, like you, who seek to defend them. I can go on about this forever, without it affecting my argument. You think William Wilberforce gave up because some people called him a whinger?
I really must stop now. It's like repeatedly punching a knocked-out boxer. Or teasing a disabled child. There's really no mana in it. Everyone reading these posts has "got it". Apart from you. And even if you did, it's too late for your pride to back down.
Let's just agree to disagree as people say.
Peace :-)
Posted 18:43 26th March 2013